Highest scoring tank ace

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admfisher
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Highest scoring tank ace

Post by admfisher » 20 Jul 2002 05:18

Was it Wittman or Bake?

On July 29th 1943 the 11th Pz Regt. commander said, "You have destroyed 111 enemy tanks, and 140 anti-tank guns, and other heavy weapons."

On the 1st of Aug. 43 Bake was awarded the Oak Leaves to the Knights Cross. Thus becoming the 262nd holder of the award.

13th of Sept. 43 another credited 3 kills near Udy.

Oct. seen the awarding of the Oak Leaves to the Knights Cross by Hitler himself which was supposed to be unusual.

While wiht XXXXVI Pz Korps he was credited with 3 more kills this was late Jan. 44.


Then at the area of Dselintsche, he killed 3 tanks on Mar 18th, then on the 19th he got a further 2.

This total is now at 122 tanks destroyed and it is still only March of 1944, somewhere in his section of Panzer Aces it is said that there is no know total number of tanks that he was resposible for.

Now we have some one who more than likley passed Wittmann's total of 128 I believe. This I say as Bake fought till the end of the war.

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Benoit Douville
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Post by Benoit Douville » 20 Jul 2002 06:26

What about Otto Carius! I think he have the most "kills"

Regards

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Marcus
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Post by Marcus » 20 Jul 2002 10:16

Here is a list of panzer aces posted by David C Clarke over in the Feldgrau forum.


TANK KILLERS

Contributors; Ron Klages, David C. Clarke, Erich Brown, Steve Eckardt, John S.

1.Kurt Knispel –168 Kills (sPzAbt. 503)
2.Otto Carius – 150+ Kills (sPzAbt. 502)–Tiger I--Knight's Cross 5/4/44, Oak Leaves 7/27/44.
3.Johannes (Hans) Bolter-- 139 Kills (possibly 144) (sPzAbt. 502) Tigers– Knight's Cross 4/16/44, Oak Leaves 9/10/44.
4.Michael Wittman – 138 Kills (sS.S.PzAbt. 101 Liebstandarte)–Tiger I–Knight's Cross 1/14/44, Oak Leaves 1/14/44 with Swords, 6/25/44.
5.Hans Sandrock – 123 Kills (assorted AFV last unit HJ )
6.Paul Egger – 113 Kills (s SS Pz. Abt. 102)–Tigers– Knight's cross 4/28/45
7.Fritz Lang– 113 Kills (StuG. Abt. 232)
8.Arno Giesen – 111 Kills (Das Reich)
9.Oberfahnrich Rondorf—106 kills (sPzAbt. 503)–Tigers
10.Feldwebel Gaetner ( Gartner?)– 103 Kills (sPzAbt. 503)–Tigers
11.Karl Koener – 100+ Kills (sS.S.PzAbt. 503)–Tigers–Knight's Cross 4/29/44.
12.Albert Kerscher – 100+ Kills (sPzAbt. 502)–Tigers–Knight's Cross 10/23/44.
13.Balthazar (Bobby) Woll–100+ Kills, 81 as Gunner (sSS Pz. Abt. 101)–Knight's Cross–1/16/44.
14.Helmut Wendorff—84 Kills (sS.S.Pz Abt.101)–Tigers–Knight's Cross 2/12/44.
15.Ernst Barkmann—82+ Kills (Das Reich)—Panther–Knight's Cross 8/27/44.
16.Eric Litztke—76 Kills (sPzAbt. 509)--Tigers– Knight's Cross 10/20/44
17.Hermann Bix – 75+ Kills (4th Panzer Division)–Knight's Cross 3/22/45.
18.Hans Strippel – 70 Kills (4. / II/ PzAbt. 1, 1st Pz. Division)–Pz. IV–Knight's Cross 6/4/44.
19.Emil Seibold – 69 Kills (Das Reich)–Pz IV+ Captured T-34s
20.Wilhelm Knauth—68 Kills (sPzAbt. 505)–Tigers–Knight's Cross 11/14/43.
21.Hugo Primozic– 68 Kills (StuG Abt. 667)–Knight's Cross 9/25/42, Oak Leaves 1/25/43.
22.Karl Bromann – 66 Kills (sS.S.PzAbt. 503)–Tigers.
23.Josef William (Sepp) Brandner – 61 Kills (StuG Brigade 912)–Knight's Cross 1/17/45, Oak Leaves 4/30/45.
24.Hans-Bobo von Rohr – 58 Kills (25 Pz. Abt., 7th Pz. Division)–Knight's Cross 11/15/44, Oak leaves 4/8/45 (Posthumously).
25.Karl Heinz Warmbrunn-- 57 Kills, 44 as gunner (s SS Pz. Abt. 101)–Tigers
26.Albert Ernst–55 Kills–(s.Pz. Jgr. Abt. 519)--Nashorn–Knight's Cross–2/7/44.
27.Richard Engelmann—54 Kills (StuG Abt. 912)–Knight's Cross 7/22/44.
28.Heinz Kling–51 Kills (s SS Pz. Abt. 101)--Tigers.
29.Johann Muller–50 Kills ((sPz. Abt. 502)--Tigers–Knight's Cross 10/23/44.
30.Josef Dallmeier—50 Kills (Fhr. PzJager Kp.1183)–Hetzer–Knight's Cross 4/3/45(?).
31.Walter Feibig—50+ Kills (StuG Brigade 301)
32.Heinz Kramer – 50+ Kills (sPzAbt. 502)–Tigers–Knight's Cross 10/6/44.
33.Alfredo Carpaneto – 50+ Kills (sPzAbt. 502)–Tigers–Knight's Cross 3/28/45.
34.Oberleutnant Mausberg – 50+ Kills (s.Pz. Abt. 505)–Tigers.
35.Wolfgang Hans Heimer Paul von Bostell–48 Kills–( Pz. Jgr. Kp. 1023, Pz. Jgr. Abt. 205)–Knight's Cross 9/2/44, Oak Leaves 4/30/45.
36.Jurgen Brandt—47 Kills (sS.S.Abt. 101)–Tigers.
37.Heinz Deutsch – 44 Kills (Fsch. StuG Brigade 12) Knight's Cross 4/28/45.
38.Fritz Amling—42+ Kills (in 48 Hrs. with StuG Brigade 202) Knight's Cross 12/5/42.
39.Heinz Scharf—40+ Kills (StuG Brigade 202) Knight's Cross 9/5/44.
40.Walter Oberloskamp – 40+ Kills (StuG Brigade 667) Knight's Cross 5/15/43.
41.Fredrich Tadje—39 Kills (StuG Abt. 190) Knight's Cross 10/24/42.
42.Rudolf Roy—36 Kills (12 S.S. PanzerJager Abt. HJ)–JP IV–Knight's Cross 10/16/44.
43.Gottwald Stier—30+ Kills (StuG Brigade 667) Knight's Cross (date unknown).
44.Josef Trager – 30+ Kills (StuG Brigade 667) Knight's Cross (date unknown).
45.Richard Schram—30 Kills (StuG Brigade 202) Knight's Cross 12/12/42.
46.Karl Pfreundtner—30 Kills (StuG Abt. 244) Knight's Cross 9/18/42.
47.Karl Heinrich Banze – 24 Kills (13 on one day StuG Abt. 244) Knight's Cross 5/27/42.
48.Felix Adamowitsch –23 Kills (in an 8 day period, StuG Abt. 244) Knight's Cross 10/20/44.
49.Eugen Metzger—23 Kills (StuG Abt. 203) Knight's Cross 9/29/41.
50.Hauptmann Rade –23 Kills (StuG Abt. 244)
51.Heinrich Teriete – 22 Kills (in one engagement, sPzJgAbt. 653) Knight's Cross 7/22/43.
52.Franz Staudegger—22+ Kills (sS.S.Pz Abt. 101) Knight's Cross 7/10/43.
53.Franz Kretshmer – 21 Kills (sPzJgAbt. 653) Knight's Cross 12/17/43
54.Horst Naumann—21 Kills (StuG Abt. 184) Knight's Cross 1/4/43
55.Klaus Wagner – 18 Kills (in two days, StuG Abt. 667)
56.Hermann Feldheim—16 Kills (sPzJgAbt. 654)
57.Heinrich Engel –15 Kills (StuG Abt. 259) Knight's Cross 11/7/43
58. Rudolf von Ribbentrop– 14 Kills (LSSAH+ HJ) Knight's Cross 7/20/43.
59. Wachtmeister Moj–12 Kills (StuG Abt. 190)
60. Siegfried Freyer– 11 Kills in one engagement (Pz. Abt. 24) Knight's Cross 7/23/43.
61. Alfred Reginitor–10 Kills (StuG Abt. 279) Knight's Cross (date unknown).

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Post by Roland » 20 Jul 2002 10:25

I agree. Otto Carius destroyed 150 tanks. Some sources say it could be even 170. Others where - Hauptmann Bolter - 144, Feldwebel Knispel - 162. That actualy puts Knispel in the highest place, unles Carius realy did destroy 170.

Best regards.

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Post by Roland » 20 Jul 2002 10:30

Marcus

You just beat me with Your much better list !

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admfisher
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Bix

Post by admfisher » 20 Jul 2002 18:36

Where is Bake on the list?

Bix you have credited with 75 plus kills. The 75 kills were in a 21 day period while he was in command of a Panther. There is no reference to the kills he made in the PzIII. Two of the were KV1's that were disabled with shots through the gun barrel. Also I can say for sure he has two more, they were light tanks though.
The last point on Bix was he finished his time in Jagdpanthers in which he excelled. In helping keep open the Danzig corridor they managed to pull a two for one shot. One shell throught the side of the turret of a T-34 and the one behind it they thought was undamaged till it went up in flames. The AP shell went throught the T34 turret into the next T34.

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Hail

Post by Homer martin » 20 Jul 2002 20:57

I would hope someone would post the documents to prove the totals that this list show.

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Post by Tolga Alkan » 21 Jul 2002 08:18

This list not completed i belive,some SS panzer commanders and their skills not listed.

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Hi,

Post by Homer martin » 21 Jul 2002 08:27

Hi Tolga Alkan,
I for one find it very hard to believe a total of 150+ kills for Otto Carius, I think the early list I have seen showing him with around 125 kills is more relyable. I want to see the reseach for these higher totals on a number of Individuals.

/HGM

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Post by Tolga Alkan » 21 Jul 2002 12:40

Hi there,
i belive making a list about their kill scores is very hard.If you could ask it to living veterans,they couldn't give you a exact answer,who knows?

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Christian Ankerstjerne
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Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 21 Jul 2002 15:15

Very nice list.

Some of the vehicles commanded by the aces aren't included, though, like a Jagdtiger for Otto Caerius and Albert Ernst...

Christian

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Post by Tolga Alkan » 21 Jul 2002 16:44

Ferdinand,
both are listed.Didn't you see?But listed as Tiger.

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admfisher
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Aces

Post by admfisher » 21 Jul 2002 18:33

To achieve these high scores some of the tank men started the war right at the start.

Bix as I mentioned was an amazing character with a PzIII. Two time it documented that he finally disabled KV-1's with barrel hits. One of these after the battle they counted three hit on the barrel.
Plus the total numer of Kills for Bix is above 100. He went on to Jagdtigers.

Albert Ernst was a wonderful Hornisse commander, he had many kills with these and was awarded the 100 Tank Kill award at his kill 75, this was due to his skill.
He ended the war with the JagdTigers. These they say they loved as they could engage Americans at ranges of upto 4000 m's.

The previously discussed book Panzer Aces will give you a good insight. The best part is the price.

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Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 21 Jul 2002 18:44

Albert Ernst was really more of a Panzerjäger ace - does this qualify him for more fame-per-ill than someone driving an obviously better vehicle (a real Panzer)?

It could be interesting to find out if the aces 'preferred' Panzers over Panzerjägere.

Also, as for the Jagdtiger, the 8.8cm Kw.K. 43 L/71 could penetrate thicker armour plates than the 12.8cm Kw.K. 44 L/55, because of its immense length.
The Kw.K. 44 could fire farther (over 20 kilometres from the relatively low elevation the Jagdtiger could give), but this was rarely useful for AT purposes (as you wouldn't be able to see a tank that far away).

A 7.5cm Pa.K. 39 L/48 once destroyed an enemy tank from 15 kilometres away (after a number of misses), and I really think it would be impossible to hit anything farther away, due to wind, movement of target, lack of vision, etc.

I would still prefer to be in a Tiger II than a Jagdtiger ;)

Christian

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Aces

Post by admfisher » 21 Jul 2002 19:20

While so far I have read the chapthers on Bake, Bix, and Albert Ernst.

Bix who went from Pz III to IV then V and finally the Jagdpanther.
He states that once they became used to the Jagdpanthers they were happy to have them.
At one point he talks of engaging a large self propelled gun with the Jagdpanther. He states he was firing from left of it, with a decent range but with three shots they didnt kill it. The russian was probabley a SU-152. It took Bix's panzer and another Jagdpanther by hitting the gun mantles. It was finally killed by a third Jagdpanther. When they looked it over the three shots of Bix's had apparantly hit the hull front plate and had penatrated up to 10 cm.
But Bix states they could not see it clearly as it was in some bushes.

On the question of what is a Panzer Ace, maybe there is a distinction between a tank man and a PanzerJager, but with a Hornisse your chances of survival were alot less if you were hit. Many of the early PanzerJagers were lightly armored. So then maybe they took more chances. Ernst was know for taking one unit a time out and engaging the enemy. Whether it be an ambush an attack on armor and infantry or what ever. He never turned down a mission is seems.

But in Germany near the end of the war, it seemed you served in what you had a available.

As for the ranges of the 88 L/71 and 12.8 L/44 the 12.8 Ernst was very fond of. He states that nearly all hits were kills. The long ranges were espically liked for keeping the enemy at bay. They used to fire at the long ranges when they were firing on retreating units or units in an attack. Once he states the JagdTigers were to fire on the far off targets while his other tanks engaged the close in.
In long range gun shots the 12.8 was better as the heavier shot coulld keep its accuracy at long ranges better. The sight on the Jagdtiger were made for just that. If you wanted to engage at longer ranges it seems these Aces who had time in Panthers all carried siccor scopes with them.
At good range finder is most needed, as you see the early Flak 88's all had the man with his range finder, he was there for giving the range of the attacking aircraft, but when it came to the ground role he could use the same range finder to exploit the ranges now on the ground.

I have heard of Tigers shooting up targets at 12 km but never a 7.5 cm at that range.
Now that must of been some crew. What were they shooting at?
The Tiger was engaging artillery postions.
:mrgreen:
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