Warsaw Uprising 1944

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Benoit Douville
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Post by Benoit Douville » 02 Jun 2004 01:46

Liluh,

When the Warsaw uprising museum is gona be open? I sure want to visit it next time I will be in Warsaw.

Regards

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 02 Jun 2004 01:47

Liluh wrote:Either you`d like to believe it or not Oleg, Soviet acts, or lets say, Stalins, had a direct impact to the outcome of uprising.

Let`s just say, to make it easy for you, that Red Army was also an enemy, although not an official one (being the Ally in anit-nazi alliance). So insurgents had enemies from both sides, okay? Will it be cool enough?;>

Cheers,
No it won't be "cool enough"; what had effect on the uprising is a half-assed planning of the later combined with half-assed execution. All that culminated with just as bad of the attempt to put the responsibilities for the failure on somebody’s else’s shoulder.

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sylvieK4
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Post by sylvieK4 » 02 Jun 2004 12:47

Oleg Grigoryev wrote:
No it won't be "cool enough"; what had effect on the uprising is a half-assed planning of the later combined with half-assed execution. All that culminated with just as bad of the attempt to put the responsibilities for the failure on somebody’s else’s shoulder.


So, are you saying that there was absolutely nothing the Soviets could have done to improve the chances of the Uprising?

Eugene (J. Baker)
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Post by Eugene (J. Baker) » 02 Jun 2004 13:02

sylvieK4 wrote:Oleg Grigoryev wrote:
No it won't be "cool enough"; what had effect on the uprising is a half-assed planning of the later combined with half-assed execution. All that culminated with just as bad of the attempt to put the responsibilities for the failure on somebody’s else’s shoulder.


So, are you saying that there was absolutely nothing the Soviets could have done to improve the chances of the Uprising?


I know how is popular to speak about Red Army terrible plans to came on "empty place" after uprising were defeated by Germans - but it is the same to speak what Soviet Union allowed Germany to came to Moscow with only goal - for Nazi going through Poland. I dont remember details, but i khow what RA forces were in Warsaw ASAP - As Soon As POSSIBLE.

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Liluh
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Post by Liluh » 02 Jun 2004 15:24

Oleg Grigoryev wrote:
Liluh wrote:Either you`d like to believe it or not Oleg, Soviet acts, or lets say, Stalins, had a direct impact to the outcome of uprising.

Let`s just say, to make it easy for you, that Red Army was also an enemy, although not an official one (being the Ally in anit-nazi alliance). So insurgents had enemies from both sides, okay? Will it be cool enough?;>

Cheers,
No it won't be "cool enough"; what had effect on the uprising is a half-assed planning of the later combined with half-assed execution. All that culminated with just as bad of the attempt to put the responsibilities for the failure on somebody’s else’s shoulder.


Okay Oleg, I`m not implying that Soviets were fully resnosible for the failure, that would be just dump and untrue, I didn`t suggest it in any my posts either.

What I`m saying is that there IS a responsibilty. Soviets did encourage the uprising and did say they`ll help, unofficially. Somewhere in my home archive is a leaflet dropped from a russian plane proving that, but since it`s in my grandparents archives somewhere, it will take time to get to it. I assure you i`ll post it on the forum as soon as I`ll get my hands on it.

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Liluh
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Post by Liluh » 02 Jun 2004 15:25

Eugene (J. Baker) wrote:
sylvieK4 wrote:Oleg Grigoryev wrote:
No it won't be "cool enough"; what had effect on the uprising is a half-assed planning of the later combined with half-assed execution. All that culminated with just as bad of the attempt to put the responsibilities for the failure on somebody’s else’s shoulder.


So, are you saying that there was absolutely nothing the Soviets could have done to improve the chances of the Uprising?


I know how is popular to speak about Red Army terrible plans to came on "empty place" after uprising were defeated by Germans - but it is the same to speak what Soviet Union allowed Germany to came to Moscow with only goal - for Nazi going through Poland. I dont remember details, but i khow what RA forces were in Warsaw ASAP - As Soon As POSSIBLE.


Well Eugene, you`re welcome to check it up with your sources, I`m pretty sure everyone would appriciate it.

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Liluh
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Post by Liluh » 02 Jun 2004 15:28

Benoit Douville wrote:Liluh,

When the Warsaw uprising museum is gona be open? I sure want to visit it next time I will be in Warsaw.

Regards


As far as I know, on 01 sept 2004. Nice annual date of 60 years after the uprising.

Check out http://www.1944.pl official museum site.

EDIT:
Or will it be on 1st august? We`ll see if they`ll make it in time ;)
Last edited by Liluh on 04 Jun 2004 01:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Liluh
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Post by Liluh » 02 Jun 2004 15:48

I`ve got a nice picture for you.

Image[/img]

This is my wounded grandfather, Henryk Mirowski.

It was made on Hipoteczna street in Old City during the uprising. He was wounded with a riccochet in right side of his stomach. The bullet (or maybe some metal piece?) got through his side and just made a cut. It looked worse than it was for real. This picture was also published on polish post stamps 40 years after the uprising.

People around are from Oddzialy Bojowe Korpusu Bezpieczenstwa Armii Krajowej, Batalion "Nalecz" where my grandfather with his brothers fought.
Rough translation: Assualt Division of Safety Corp of the Home Army, batallion "Nalecz". The guy kneeing on the up-left side is Stefan Kaniewski - "Nalecz", the captain and leader of the group.

Interesting facts. During mid 90`s some other people claimed the rights to the picture. They said it`s not my grandfather but someone else. Well, court called a police expert (one of the best) who throughly verified the picture and stated that this is indeed my grandfather and Stefan Kaniewski near him. The case went on and on in court for several years and I`m not precisely sure how it finished. Never mind that.

Eugene (J. Baker)
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Post by Eugene (J. Baker) » 03 Jun 2004 11:03

Liluh wrote:
Eugene (J. Baker) wrote:
sylvieK4 wrote:Oleg Grigoryev wrote:
No it won't be "cool enough"; what had effect on the uprising is a half-assed planning of the later combined with half-assed execution. All that culminated with just as bad of the attempt to put the responsibilities for the failure on somebody’s else’s shoulder.


So, are you saying that there was absolutely nothing the Soviets could have done to improve the chances of the Uprising?


I know how is popular to speak about Red Army terrible plans to came on "empty place" after uprising were defeated by Germans - but it is the same to speak what Soviet Union allowed Germany to came to Moscow with only goal - for Nazi going through Poland. I dont remember details, but i khow what RA forces were in Warsaw ASAP - As Soon As POSSIBLE.


Well Eugene, you`re welcome to check it up with your sources, I`m pretty sure everyone would appriciate it.


First official source i can provide - memoirs of marshal Rokossovsky (quoted):

...2 august we have heard about Warsaw uprising. This news strongly alarmed us and stuff of Belorussian front started gathering of information ... Firstly we though it is German provocation, because moment for uprising was worst we could think...
Our right wing contained 45 and 65 armies fought 100 km on north and north-east from Warsaw (another two armies of right wing were reserved by Stavka and moved to Belorussia - with goal to fight for Narev and its staging areas). 70 army was fighting for Brest and local encircled German forces... 47 army was fighting near Sedlets front to north... 2 guard tank army, firstly broke Geman lines near Praga (Warsaw outskirt) was counterattacked by German forces... 1 Polish army, 8 guard army and 69 army forsed Visla on south of Warsaw near Magnushev and Pulava and took staging areas trying enlarge them...

This is a moment of uprising... which started then our Belorussian front just moved more than 600 kilometers through German lines and could not take Warsaw without reinforcement and regrouping


.......


Relationship between uprising leaders and Soviet stuff was established only 17 september (through London, although it was possible from the start of uprising) ...


.......


translation by me.


http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/rokossovsky/20.html

here is more, but in Russian.

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Fredd
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Post by Fredd » 03 Jun 2004 13:01

2 august we have heard about Warsaw uprising. This news strongly alarmed us and stuff of Belorussian front started gathering of information ... Firstly we though it is German provocation, because moment for uprising was worst we could think...


It's a total BS 8O . To start with memoirs hardly can be treated as official source - can be a valuable source of informations but not an OFFICIAL.

Official sources of informations include goverment documents, Intelligence reports, records from briefing and so on.

Memoirs of Soviet soldiers were written in circumstances that made them unreliable. There were censorship, and they had to write along with the present oficial party line.

Take, for instance Zhukov memoirs and point me at which part he admited to his greatest defeat - the 'Mars' operation?

Back to the Warsaw Uprising - it started on 1st August and Rokossovsky claimed Russian didn't know till second. Very funny indeed. Its the purest lie! How it was possible? So close to the front line in major city bursted out uprising and Soviets needed one day to hear the news about it.

Tell me how it was possible that Soviet - controlled radio "Kosciuszko" called to Uprising? And Soviets Intelligence was 'suprised'? Gimme a break!

Regards!

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Liluh
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Post by Liluh » 03 Jun 2004 17:42

In addition to what Fredd wrote, the source given by Eugene, nevertheless, proves Soviet army was just around the corner in Warsaw`s Praga, and few km south of Warsaw crossing Vistula.

What we need now are some sources giving an idea of german forces defending around. Around 50.000 german troops were engaged in the uprising, where was the rest of them? Let`s just focus on the middle of eastern front at that time. In contrary, some german high officers memory would be in place.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 03 Jun 2004 19:39

Fredd wrote:
2 august we have heard about Warsaw uprising. This news strongly alarmed us and stuff of Belorussian front started gathering of information ... Firstly we though it is German provocation, because moment for uprising was worst we could think...


It's a total BS 8O . To start with memoirs hardly can be treated as official source - can be a valuable source of informations but not an OFFICIAL.

Official sources of informations include goverment documents, Intelligence reports, records from briefing and so on.

Memoirs of Soviet soldiers were written in circumstances that made them unreliable. There were censorship, and they had to write along with the present oficial party line.

Take, for instance Zhukov memoirs and point me at which part he admited to his greatest defeat - the 'Mars' operation?

Back to the Warsaw Uprising - it started on 1st August and Rokossovsky claimed Russian didn't know till second. Very funny indeed. Its the purest lie! How it was possible? So close to the front line in major city bursted out uprising and Soviets needed one day to hear the news about it.

Tell me how it was possible that Soviet - controlled radio "Kosciuszko" called to Uprising? And Soviets Intelligence was 'suprised'? Gimme a break!

Regards!
Get his memories published in 2000 he does write about Mars he also considers himself responsible for the initial Zeelow seatback.

As for the “bs” it is a fact that AK did not coordinate and did not inform Soviet High command of their plans; have they done so they would have been told to hold off. But here usually comes the passage where somebody will say that AK hated the Soviets but expected some miracle help form them anyway.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 03 Jun 2004 20:14

Liluh wrote:In addition to what Fredd wrote, the source given by Eugene, nevertheless, proves Soviet army was just around the corner in Warsaw`s Praga, and few km south of Warsaw crossing Vistula.

What we need now are some sources giving an idea of german forces defending around. Around 50.000 german troops were engaged in the uprising, where was the rest of them? Let`s just focus on the middle of eastern front at that time. In contrary, some german high officers memory would be in place.

In contrary, some german high officers memory would be in place.


Be as it may, an attempt by the Russian XVI Tank Corps to cross the railway bridge over the Vistula at Deblin on July 25 1944 has failed with loss of 30 tanks. The bridge could be blown in time. Further Russian tank forces were stopped to the North of Warsaw . We Germans had the impression that it was our defenses which halted the enemy rather than a Russian desire to sabotage the Warsaw uprisng.
Heinz Guderian -"Panzer Leader" page 359 of the1996 eddition.

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PolAntek
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Post by PolAntek » 04 Jun 2004 01:32

Oleg Grigoryev wrote:
We Germans had the impression that it was our defenses which halted the enemy rather than a Russian desire to sabotage the Warsaw uprisng.
Heinz Guderian -"Panzer Leader" page 359 of the1996 eddition.


Thanks for that Oleg. I agree with ol' Heinz!

Oleg, all through this thread you’ve been spinning off into the periphery by bringing up tangential issues. Such as: the AK did not coordinate their uprising with the Soviets…, or it was their poor execution of uprising….or that the blame for the failure of the uprising put on the Soviets…, or the AK “hated” the Soviets so why should they expect any help… etc. etc.

The last time I checked, both Poland and the Soviet Union were included on the list of Allied Nations.

When one of the Allied nations makes a reasonable request for the assistance of a fellow Ally in combating a common enemy you would expect a helping hand. In this case the Polish London Government simply requested the use of Soviet air fields for refueling of aircraft to help the Poles fight the Germans. Instead they received a half-baked bunch of typical Stalin B.S. as to why he could not offer support to “bandits”.

Here it is in simple black and white:

The AK was fighting for a free and independent Poland with her pre-war borders. Stalin wanted to see the destruction of the AK in order to:

1) maintain possession of the land he gained when he partitioned Poland along with his old partner Hitler,

2) to facilitate the post war Soviet takeover of Poland.

In other words, Stalin deliberately acted in a premeditated calculated manner to promote the destruction of the Poles fighting the Germans.

This is NOT to say that the Soviets should be blamed for the failure of the uprising. But as Sylvie asked:

sylvieK4 wrote: So, are you saying that there was absolutely nothing the Soviets could have done to improve the chances of the Uprising?


The Polish mistrust of the Soviets was well founded. They were there with the Nazi’s in 1939 as the country was carved up, and again in 1944 as a so called Ally.

Liluh wrote:Okay Oleg, I`m not implying that Soviets were fully resnosible for the failure, that would be just dump and untrue, I didn`t suggest it in any my posts either.

What I`m saying is that there IS a responsibilty. Soviets did encourage the uprising and did say they`ll help, unofficially. Somewhere in my home archive is a leaflet dropped from a russian plane proving that, but since it`s in my grandparents archives somewhere, it will take time to get to it. I assure you i`ll post it on the forum as soon as I`ll get my hands on it.


Liluh:

PLEASE find and post that leaflet!

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Benoit Douville
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Post by Benoit Douville » 04 Jun 2004 01:58

Very well said PolAntek. Stalin definetely wanted the destruction of the A.K.(Armia Krajowa) to take control of Poland.

Regards
Last edited by Benoit Douville on 04 Jun 2004 23:39, edited 1 time in total.

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