Concentration camps in USA during WW2

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Jure (HOS)
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Concentration camps in USA during WW2

Post by Jure (HOS) » 15 May 2004 16:53

A long time a ago I saw a documentary about concentration camps for Japanese civilians in USA during WW2...
I would be thankful if anyone could post some informations or pictures about this. This subject isn't so known today and it wouldn't be good to remain silent about this crime.

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Marcus
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Post by Marcus » 15 May 2004 17:00

Those were the internment camps and there any many books on the subject, it is pretty well known.

German-Americans and Italian-Americans were interned too, btw.

For a list of books, see http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=4951


As this is the Holocaust & War Crimes section and you claim that it was a crime, which law of war was violated by these camps in your opinion?

/Marcus

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Post by Jure (HOS) » 15 May 2004 17:06

So it is OK to put american citizen in camps only because of their japanese origin?

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Marcus
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Post by Marcus » 15 May 2004 17:12

Jure (HOS) wrote:So it is OK to put american citizen in camps only because of their japanese origin?
I know you are new to the forum, so let me explain how it works in this section:
If someone make a claim that an event is a crime, the burden of proof is on the person who makes the claim, not on the person who questions the claim.

/Marcus

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Post by Jure (HOS) » 15 May 2004 17:31

Because of my poor English I don't know what exactly is the problem. This topic is called "Concentration camps in USA during WW2" and it's put under "Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes". I don't think that I did write/ask something wrong. Americans did also do war-crimes?! Right? And I was just asking foe some more informations.

Yours sincerely
Jure

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Marcus
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Post by Marcus » 15 May 2004 17:36

The "problem" is that you claimed that the camps were a crime and now I ask you to provide facts to back up your claim that these camps were indeed violations of one of the laws of war.

/Marcus

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Post by Jure (HOS) » 15 May 2004 18:04

...mh, I was looking for facts (informations and pictures) and now I have to provide these informations. Stupid. That's like I have to proofe that concentration camps in Germany were a crime...some things are very clear and they don't have to be proofed. But OK I think the following link should do the job:


http://www.sfmuseum.org/war/evactxt.html


BTW you're always talking about the "laws of war", but no-one gives a damn to this laws during the war! Even not the "democratic" and "civilized" Americans. Do you think the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki wasn't a war-crime?!

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Marcus
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Post by Marcus » 15 May 2004 18:14

Once again, which law(s) was broken by the camps? I found no mention of any laws being violated during a quick look at that site. If none, then they were not a crime, it is really that simple.

Asking for info on the camps here is of course ok, but if you make a claim that an event was a crime were that is not the generally accepted view the burden of proof lies with you.


If you want to discuss wether or not the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were crimes, please continue one of the many threads on the topic.

And just for the record, I have not claimed that the US was free of any wrongdoing during WW2.

/Marcus

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Post by Jure (HOS) » 15 May 2004 19:06

Which law was broken by these camps?! The human rights were broken, you can not simply put people into a camp because of their nationality.
Check out the following links:
http://score.rims.k12.ca.us/activity/internment/

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Post by Jure » 15 May 2004 19:15

Marcus Wendel wrote:Once again, which law(s) was broken by the camps? I found no mention of any laws being violated during a quick look at that site. If none, then they were not a crime, it is really that simple.

Well...is it not a crime to take a human beings freedom away just because he is of another nationality/race?

Edit: just noticed that you already said that, Jure (HOS)...

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Marcus
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Post by Marcus » 15 May 2004 19:20

Jure wrote:Well...is it not a crime to take a human beings freedom away just because he is of another nationality/race?
As I pointed out above, the burden of proof (ie stating which law that was violated) lies with the person who made the claim that the camps were indeed criminal, in this case Jure (HOS).

Wether or not the camps was morally right is a separate discussion from wether or not they were crimes.

/Marcus

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Post by happy » 15 May 2004 20:14

One of my Father's friends was in a camp during WW2. He was a teenager, and he said he had a pretty good time there. He was very bored, because there was not much to do, so he spent most of his time playing baseball. other than being denied his freedom, he did not think it was too bad. He does not hold a grudge against the US government for doing it.

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Post by David Thompson » 15 May 2004 20:26

Jure and Jure (HOS) -- A crime is a violation of some law. It has been that way since Roman times. If you are going to claim that an act is a crime, you must specify which law forbids the act.[/b][/i]

The site url Jure (HOS) gave -- http://score.rims.k12.ca.us/activity/internment/ -- asks the same question, under the category "Tasks":
What constitutional rights, if any, were violated by the federal government?
We require this in a research area of the forum like the H&WC section, because the object of these research sections is not to post opinions, but to exchange information and hold informed discussions.

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Post by walterkaschner » 15 May 2004 23:49

Marcus Wrote:
German-Americans and Italian Americans were interned too, btw.
Actually, this had been the topic of lively debate, primarily over what specifically is embraced within the term "German-American" or "Italian-American". If those terms relate only to US citizens of German or Italian origin, then the statement is somewhat misleading.

The Presidentil Proclamations of December 8, 1941 providing for the arrest and internment of German and Italian Aliens (Nos. 2526 and 2527, respectively) read as follows:

And, acting under and by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Constitution of the United States and the said sections of the United States Code, I do hereby further proclaim and direct that the conduct to be observed on the part of the United States toward all natives, citizens, denizens or subjects of Germany being of the age of fourteen years and upwards who shall be within the United States or within any territories in any way subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and not actually naturalized, who for the purpose of this Proclamation and under such sections of the United States Code are termed alien enemies, shall be as follows: [my emphasis]

All alien enemies are enjoined to preserve the peace toward the United States and to refrain from crime against public safety, and from violating the laws of the United States and of the States and Territories thereof; and to refrain from actual hostility or giving information, aid or comfort to the enemies of the United States or interfering by word or deed with the defense of the United States or political processes and public opinions thereof; and to comply strictly with the regulations which are hereby or which may be from time to time promulgated by the President.

All alien enemies shall be liable to restraint, or to give security, or to remove and depart from the United States in the manner prescribed by sections 23 and 24 of title 50 of the United States Code, and as prescribed in the regulations duly promulgated by the President.
The telegraphic instructions issued to the local F.B.I. Agents made it abundantly clear that only non- US citizens were suject to arrest.
FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION
UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

To: COMMUNICATIONS SECTION

Transmit the following message to:

CBC:CSH December 8, 1941

TO ALL SACs:
MOST URGENT. SUPERSEDING AND CLARIFYING PREVIOUS INSTRUCTIONS RE: GERMAN
AND ITALIAN ALIENS. IMMEDIATELY TAKE INTO CUSTODY ALL GERMAN AND ITALIAN
ALIENS PREVIOUSLY CLASSIFIED IN GROUPS A,B, AND C, IN MATERIAL PREVIOUSLY
TRANSMITTED TO YOU. IN ADDITION, YOU ARE AUTHORIZED TO IMMEDIATELY ARREST
ANY GERMAN OR ITALIAN ALIENS, NOT PREVIOUSLY CLASSIFIED IN THE ABOVE CATEGORIES.
IN THE EVENT YOU POSSESS INFORMATION INDICATING THE ARREST OF SUCH INDIVIDUALS
NECESSARY FOR THE INTERNAL SECURITY OF THIS COUNTRY. ABOVE PROCEDURE APPLIES
ONLY TO GERMAN AND ITALIAN ALIENS, AND NOT TO CITIZENS.
ABOVE PROCEDURE DOES
NOT IN ANY INSTANCE APPLY TO DIPLOMATIC OR CONSULAR REPRESENTATIVES OF THE
GERMAN OR ITALIAN GOVERNMENT. BUREAU MUST BE ADVISED TELEGRAPHICALLY AT
EARLIEST POSSIBLE MOMENT CONCERNING INDIVIDUALS ARRESTED PURSUANT TO ABOVE
INSTRUCTIONS. THIS TELEGRAPHIC INFORMATION TO BUREAU SHOULD SPECIFICALLY
DESIGNATE, WITH REGARD TO EACH INDIVIDUAL MENTIONED, WHETHER THE ALIEN IN
QUESTION HAS BEEN PREVIOUSLY CLASSIFIED ON THE A, B, OR C LIST, OR WHETHER
HE IS BEING ARRESTED AS AN ALIEN CONCERNING WHOM INFORMATION JUSTIFYING
HIS ARREST IS POSSESSED, ALTHOUGH NOT PREVIOUSLY CLASSIFIED IN THE ABOVE
CATEGORIES. AS TO ALIENS IN LATTER CATEGORY, SPECIFY CONCERNING EACH
INDIVIDUAL WHETHER CUSTODIAL DETENTION DOSSIERS PREVIOUSLY SUBMITTED BY
FIELD OFFICE INVOLVED CONCERNING INDIVIDUAL IN QUESTION. AS TO GERMAN OR
ITALIAN ALIENS CONCERNING WHOM INFORMATION IS POSSESSED INDICATING
THEIR ARREST NECESSARY FOR INTERNAL SECURITY OF THE COUNTRY, ALTHOUGH
NOT PREVIOUSLY CLASSIFIED IN A,B, OR C CATEGORIES, AND ON WHOM PREVIOUS
CUSTODIAL DETENTION DOSSIERS NOT SUBMITTED. BUREAU MUST BE FURNISHED
IMMEDIATELY COMPLETE SUMMARY OF INFORMATION POSSESSED CONCERNING
INDIVIDUAL INVOLVED, JUSTIFYING ARREST. ALL INDIVIDUAL ARRESTED MUST BE
TURNED OVER TO NEAREST REPRESENTATIVE OF IMMIGRATION AND NATURALIZATION
SERVICE. [Emphasis mine.]
Undoubtedly a few citizens were arrested by mistake, and although I don't have the total arrests of all German and Italian aliens at hand the numbers were undoubtedly miniscule compared to the total number of such aliens in the USA at the time. There were 294,650 Italian males and 145,477 German males registered as aliens under the 1940 Alien Registration Act, and probably a significant number who had failed to register. By December 13, 1941 only 1,002 German and 169 Italian aliens had been taken into custody [Dept. of Justice Press release of like date] and although the total probably increased substantially , many were promptly released - as was the case of Ezio Pinza, prominent Italian opera star.

Of the relatively small total number of Germans and Italians who were interned in the US during WWII there were indeed several US citizens, most of whom were "voluntary" internees - citizen wives of alien husbands, children of alien parents, who had acquired US citizenship by virtue of having been born in the US. They were there quite naturally of their own choosing, not wishing to be separated from their families. And a very few others who although citizens, were individually believed to be a threat to the security of the US and were being held for investigation and trial on that basis.

But although the treatment of Italian and German aliens was undoubtedly unjustified in many individual instances, it by no means IMHO reached the shameful level of the treatment accorded the Japanese, both alien and citizen, at the same time.

Organizations, politicians and embittered individuals with their own axes to grind choose to define German-American and Italian-American as those residing in the US with either a permanent residence permit or temporary visa. But IMHO there is a great differnce between a citizen and a temporary or permanent resident who has chosen to retain his foreign citizenship and failed to render an oath of loyalty to the nation of his residence.

Apologies for this somewhat off topic post, and

Regards, Kaschner

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Beppo Schmidt
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Post by Beppo Schmidt » 16 May 2004 14:58

Jure, I think the interment of Japanese-Americans would be more of a violation of civil rights than a violation of the rules of war. And Marcus is correct, the issue is not that it was wrong- I don't think anyone would dispute that- but whether it was legally a crime.

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