Zuroff's latest

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Reigo
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Zuroff's latest

Post by Reigo » 23 Jul 2002 22:47

Zuroff has presented a list of names of some of the members of Schuttzmannschafts-F-Bataillon 36 (an Estonian unit). There are 16 names alltogether. This battalion has been accused in participating in killing Jews in Novogrudok on 7th August 1942. The only proof for this are some NKVD interrogation files. In these files a couple of veterans of this battalion testify that the battalion participated in these killings. The critics have said that it was common during NKVD interrogations to force people to give their signature under text, which was actually written by the interrogator. So these files solely can't be considered as final proof.

Zuroff's list was examined by the Kaitsepolitsei. The conclusions were that the list is only a part from a list which originates from 23rd December 1942 and indicates men, who were awarded with EK II on this date. They were awarded for battalions actions near Stalingrad. Alltogether 42 were awarded.

Of these 16 men on Zuroff's list, 4 fell in WW II, 5 died after the war and all the others are not living in Estonia at the moment and it is not known where they live.

The Kaitsepolitsei concluded that it is not documentally proved that the battalion took part in the killings of Novogrudok.

Now the US embassy has intruded. The embassy refers to the conclusion of the commission of investigating crimes against humanity (a commission, summoned in 1998 by Estonian president to investigate atrocities in Estonia during occupations), which says that the battalion participated in Novogrudok killings. The commission's conclusion are based on the abovementioned NKVD-files.

Let's wait what happens next...

BTW, has anybody more info on these killings of Novogrudok in August 1942? All I know is that it is claimed that 2 500 Jews were shot.

Roland
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Post by Roland » 24 Jul 2002 04:56

Anybody who uses NKVD files only as a proof should be questioned. NKVD also used Katyn massacre to blaim germans. However, NKVD was the ones who commited this slaughter. They have done that in meny other cases. I would not believe one word that comes out of KGB!

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 24 Jul 2002 13:41

Roland wrote:They have done that in meny other cases.


Many other cases?

Such as?

Can you give a few examples beside Katyn of NKVD killings that were blamed on the Germans?

I know of only one such other case: the Kuropaty killings.

Katyn was not the only Soviet atrocity blamed on the German invader. In the Kuropaty forest in Belorussia roadworkers excavating a new highway in 1957 uncovered human remains. 'An ancient cementery' was the explanation given. In 1987 two schoolboys stumbled across a mass grave. What they had discovered was one of an estimated 500 mass burial sites in the forest around Minsk, all of them filled with the victims of NKVD terror. They contained, according to the estimates of those who investigated them, between 150,000 and 200,000 bodies. The official position of the Byelorussian Government, which authorized a commission of inquiry, was to blame the Germans, and this position was maintained beyond the collapse of the Soviet Communist system, which had kept the lies alive. The evidence from the exhumations damned the NKVD. The bullets were those used in the official-issue Nagan revolver; death was the usual shot through the back of the skull, exactly as in Katyn. There were witnesses who watched the relentless cycle of killing behind the fenced-off area of forest; who saw the forest roads flattened by the constant trafffic of trucks coming in full and returning empty; who recalled the timetables of execution: dawn, two o'clock in the afternoon, dusk. To blame the German invader for Katyn was easy in the 1940s, given the unambiguous evidence of German crimes throughout the occupied Soviet area. To sustain the falsehoods for fifty years and to heap on more when the evidence quite literally surfaced in the 1980s is harder to explain. The image of Soviet righteousness, sustained by propaganda after the German invasion, allowed Stalin, and then the entire Soviet system, to erect a curtain of forgetfulness between the pre-war and the post-war world. The post-Stalinist state had no more interest in owning up to atrocities than had Stalin himself. Honesty on such issues was regarded as corrosive.


Source of quote:

Richard Overy, Russia's War, pages 296/297.

RedArmy
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Post by RedArmy » 24 Jul 2002 14:08

Hi, Reigo!

As I know you are from the little proud country, where SS monuments are built (with some sort of 'to the fighters for Europe's freedom'). So you'd better clean your own house, my little nazi...

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Post by RedArmy » 24 Jul 2002 14:13

Hi, Reigo!

As I know you are from the little proud country, where SS monuments are built (with some sort of 'to the fighters for Europe's freedom'). So you'd better clean your own house, my little nazi...

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 24 Jul 2002 14:20

RedArmy wrote:Hi, Reigo!

As I know you are from the little proud country, where SS monuments are built (with some sort of 'to the fighters for Europe's freedom'). So you'd better clean your own house, my little nazi...


Cool it, Red.

Reigo can be annoyingly pedantic (just like me), but he's definitely not a Nazi.

Reigo
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Post by Reigo » 24 Jul 2002 14:34

Hi, Reigo!

As I know you are from the little proud country, where SS monuments are built (with some sort of 'to the fighters for Europe's freedom'). So you'd better clean your own house, my little nazi...


Hi Red Army!

I don't support Nazi ideology. That the SS monument in Pärnu was removed is also approved by me. Can you point out where the other "SS monuments" are?

Also how is your post related with this thread? I don't think that your frustration is very informative, my little Red Army.

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Post by RedArmy » 24 Jul 2002 15:11

You know, my little eesti, I hate persons defending nazis. You are defending them, you're defending persons from the criminal organization (SS - by Nurenberg Trial decision).

And you hate jews, especially from Wiesental's Centre. You blame they are KGB agents. 50 years ago you'd blame they are bolsheviks or parasites, so on.

All your postings make me feeling you are a little nazi (you love SS guys, you hate jews)...

Reigo
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Post by Reigo » 24 Jul 2002 15:19

You know, my little eesti, I hate persons defending nazis. You are defending them, you're defending persons from the criminal organization (SS - by Nurenberg Trial decision).

And you hate jews, especially from Wiesental's Centre. You blame they are KGB agents. 50 years ago you'd blame they are bolsheviks or parasites, so on.

All your postings make me feeling you are a little nazi (you love SS guys, you hate jews)...


Oh my! You are really frustrated!
I don't hate Jews, in fact I have a Jewish friend. I don't defend Nazis. I don't consider Estonians in Waffen-SS as Nazis. Sure, some single individuals thought that Nazism was great, but wast majority didn't care about it.

No go and vomit on some other thread, my little Red Army.

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Post by RedArmy » 24 Jul 2002 16:07

Of course, you have a jewish friend. Even Goering and Hitler had their own jews...

Be truthful, say - I like nazis, i like SS. Don't try to play words. For example, 'jews were killed in Baltic countries because they were NKVD agents and officers' - that's the point of persons like you.

And, of course, estonians in Waffen SS were not nazis, they fought against bolsheviks for 'Europe's freedom', didn't they? Of course, some killed jews or belorussians worth nothing when you fight against Bolshevism :)

Reigo
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Post by Reigo » 24 Jul 2002 16:30

Of course, you have a jewish friend. Even Goering and Hitler had their own jews...

Be truthful, say - I like nazis, i like SS. Don't try to play words. For example, 'jews were killed in Baltic countries because they were NKVD agents and officers' - that's the point of persons like you.

And, of course, estonians in Waffen SS were not nazis, they fought against bolsheviks for 'Europe's freedom', didn't they? Of course, some killed jews or belorussians worth nothing when you fight against Bolshevism :)


You be also truthful and say: I am a clown. :mrgreen:

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 24 Jul 2002 16:35

RedArmy wrote:Be truthful, say - I like nazis, i like SS. Don't try to play words. For example, 'jews were killed in Baltic countries because they were NKVD agents and officers' - that's the point of persons like you.


Did Reigo write that 'jews were killed in Baltic countries because they were NKVD agents and officers' ?

Reigo
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Post by Reigo » 24 Jul 2002 16:44

Did Reigo write that 'jews were killed in Baltic countries because they were NKVD agents and officers' ?


Of course I didn't. But it's useless to say it to the "Red Army-types". Probably he is mad at me, since I don't praise the Soviet butchers. Such people as Red Army have usually a very black/white world wiev: Ultimate Good (Soviet Union and Russians) vs Bad (practically everybody, who doesn't lick the Soviet a**). You can see from his posts that he thinks that the Estonians fought against the "Good" because they were Nazis. That's it. So simple. There's nothing more to think anymore.
It's pointless to discuss anything with such narrow-minded clowns.

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Mait
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About Red Army.

Post by Mait » 24 Jul 2002 17:19

It is a pity. I mean a man (?) like that is a disgrace to the name he bears here as an alias.

Best Regards,

Mait.

Ovidius
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Re: About Red Army.

Post by Ovidius » 24 Jul 2002 18:13

Mait wrote:It is a pity. I mean a man (?) like that is a disgrace to the name he bears here as an alias.


No, his words fit 100% the name he bears as an alias.

The Soviets were the "lesser evil" and fought for the good of humanity, remember? How can anyone doubt this piece of Political Correctness(or otherwise he/she can go to prison....)

:mrgreen:

~Ovidius

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