British garrison in the Malvinas/Falkland Islands
- panzertruppe2001
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British garrison in the Malvinas/Falkland Islands
Which was the British garrison in Malvinas during the war? I know that some of the ships that were damaged by the Graf Spee came for the Malvinas, so i suppose that there were a great garrison there.
Thanks
Thanks
Last edited by panzertruppe2001 on 17 Oct 2005, 03:36, edited 1 time in total.
A good question. The islands had little or no strategic value, as they were far from the Empires shipping lanes. Argentina was a friendly nation and a valuable larder for frozen meat for a hungry Britain. Except for the odd German armed merchant raider cruising those latitudes, early in the war, there were no threats to the islands.
It would be interesting to learn what the situation was, exactly, in those days.
It would be interesting to learn what the situation was, exactly, in those days.
The Battle of the Falklands in December 1914 resulted from a failed attempt by Admiral Graf von Spee's East Asian Cruiser Squadron composed of the armoured cruisers "Scharnhorst", "Gneisenau" and the light cruisers "Nuernberg", "Leipzig" and "Dresden" to capture the islands. The intention to land troops from "Gneisenau" and "Nuernberg" was recognised by a lookout at Fort William and reported to Port Stanley, where the British had two battlecruisers and four cruisers on standby.
Churchill wrote between the wars that he could not really see what the Germans hoped to achieve by seizing the Falklands. However, properly fortified as a U-boat base in either war they would have been difficult to recapture and were strategic, since a base there would have posed a threat to merchant traffic in the South Atlantic generally. Argentina though neutral until March 1945 would probably have come into the Axis once things looked really promising.
Churchill wrote between the wars that he could not really see what the Germans hoped to achieve by seizing the Falklands. However, properly fortified as a U-boat base in either war they would have been difficult to recapture and were strategic, since a base there would have posed a threat to merchant traffic in the South Atlantic generally. Argentina though neutral until March 1945 would probably have come into the Axis once things looked really promising.
Wasn't there a strategic significance to their position astride the route that merchant ships took when carrying Sodium Nitrate ("Chilean saltpetre") to Germany? Before the Haber process could be properly harnessed, I believe that exports of these nitrates from South America were important to German explosive- and fertiliser-manufacturing capability.ohrdruf wrote:Churchill wrote between the wars that he could not really see what the Germans hoped to achieve by seizing the Falklands.
I understand though that by 1939 this trade had dwindled to almost nothing.
Zygmunt (collecting guano)
Zygmunt
As you say, before Haber saved their bacon, the German armed forces were in a desperate position in 1915 because of their shortage of Chilean nitrates.
What is your suggestion? Northbound merchant vesels would have picked up a battle-cruiser escort at the German Falklands naval base for the run to Europe? Fascinating if true. Do you think this was this the real reason?
As you say, before Haber saved their bacon, the German armed forces were in a desperate position in 1915 because of their shortage of Chilean nitrates.
What is your suggestion? Northbound merchant vesels would have picked up a battle-cruiser escort at the German Falklands naval base for the run to Europe? Fascinating if true. Do you think this was this the real reason?
- Leo Niehorster
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ohrdruf, I was thinking simply that perhaps the German forces were afraid that Britain would use the Falklands as a base from which to interdict German supplies of nitrates - any German action against the Islands in the First World War would have been to prevent it from being used like that. I think the aim was to deny the Islands to the British rather than to use them for anything particular. This would of course still leave the problem of how merchant ships would get past the blockade in the North Sea, but maybe they were planning to jump that hurdle when they came to it...
Apologies to all - I'm taking this off topic by only talking about the First World War.
Zygmunt
Apologies to all - I'm taking this off topic by only talking about the First World War.
Zygmunt
Zygmunt
This seems on the face of it a good argument.
However, under the various treaties of neutrality, the merchant ships of a belligerent nation were allowed to sail without hindrance through neutral waters, where international law provided them with immunity from attack. German nitrate carriers could have sailed from Iquique right round to Natal in Brazil and never once have left neutral waters.
I think this might leave the door ajar to what the real purpose was.
This seems on the face of it a good argument.
However, under the various treaties of neutrality, the merchant ships of a belligerent nation were allowed to sail without hindrance through neutral waters, where international law provided them with immunity from attack. German nitrate carriers could have sailed from Iquique right round to Natal in Brazil and never once have left neutral waters.
I think this might leave the door ajar to what the real purpose was.
Perhaps Germany wasn't sure it could trust Britain to respect that neutrality? Perhaps navigating through strictly neutral coastal waters would prove difficult - especially considering the terrible weather frequently found down there.ohrdruf wrote:However, under the various treaties of neutrality, the merchant ships of a belligerent nation were allowed to sail without hindrance through neutral waters, where international law provided them with immunity from attack.
You're referring to the U-boat base you posited earlier? I suppose so. Perhaps it was also combat for the sake of it - to drive home to the enemy that they were at war? Perhaps it was intended as the first in a series of attacks on British colonial possessions... I don't have any concrete answer.I think this might leave the door ajar to what the real purpose was.
Zygmunt
Zygmunt
It was an awfully long way for a German merchant ship to voyage from Iquique to Europe (destination port was where?) during wartime. The Atlantic part from Cape Horn northwards was very dicey and, as you say, perhaps relying on neutrality treaties was asking a lot. And once past the Azores the chances of making port very slim, I think as low as 10%.
Maybe the idea was for German battlecruisers to make the second leg themselves, possibly as escorts or even carrying the nitrate. A safer route for the first leg from Iquique-Falklands might have been westwards across the Pacific.
Very interesting that the real reason has never been discovered.
It was an awfully long way for a German merchant ship to voyage from Iquique to Europe (destination port was where?) during wartime. The Atlantic part from Cape Horn northwards was very dicey and, as you say, perhaps relying on neutrality treaties was asking a lot. And once past the Azores the chances of making port very slim, I think as low as 10%.
Maybe the idea was for German battlecruisers to make the second leg themselves, possibly as escorts or even carrying the nitrate. A safer route for the first leg from Iquique-Falklands might have been westwards across the Pacific.
Very interesting that the real reason has never been discovered.
Andy H
As you rightly observe, this question of fuel always bedevilled a nation without overseas bases in either world war. Coaling at sea was extraordinarily complicated. But in 1914/15 the Etappen system of coal supply set up in neutral countries along the Chile - Argentina - Brazil route had not been compromised. How easy would it have been to secure the approaches to the Falklands as a known German coaling station?
The nitrate situation in 1915 was desperate for Germany. I believe the shortage was the motive for the first use of battlefield gas that year, and for the attempt to impose unrestricted submarine wafare around British and Irish waters which resulted in the sinking of the "Lusitania".
I get the feeling that the run from Cape Horn to some port in Europe could not have been achieved without a warship escort, or having a battlecruiser carry the nitrate. The haul from the loading port, Iquique, to the Falklands, was enormously long and dangerous. What interests me about this whole mystery is the fact that the purpose of a German occupation the islands remains a top secret. To me this implies a political involvement.
If we look at the iron ore route from Narvik to Germany, we have an overland route from Sweden to Narvik before the sea passage. Admiral von Spee received his orders to invade the Falklands while his ships were at Valparaiso in Chile. Was there some kind of secret accord with Chile and Argentina for a road link from Iquique to Buenos Aires where the material would be put aboard ship and then escorted to Europe by battlecruisers based at the Falklands? Road transport across neutral territory was far swifter and safer than bringing the material by sea.
All opinions gratefully received.
As you rightly observe, this question of fuel always bedevilled a nation without overseas bases in either world war. Coaling at sea was extraordinarily complicated. But in 1914/15 the Etappen system of coal supply set up in neutral countries along the Chile - Argentina - Brazil route had not been compromised. How easy would it have been to secure the approaches to the Falklands as a known German coaling station?
The nitrate situation in 1915 was desperate for Germany. I believe the shortage was the motive for the first use of battlefield gas that year, and for the attempt to impose unrestricted submarine wafare around British and Irish waters which resulted in the sinking of the "Lusitania".
I get the feeling that the run from Cape Horn to some port in Europe could not have been achieved without a warship escort, or having a battlecruiser carry the nitrate. The haul from the loading port, Iquique, to the Falklands, was enormously long and dangerous. What interests me about this whole mystery is the fact that the purpose of a German occupation the islands remains a top secret. To me this implies a political involvement.
If we look at the iron ore route from Narvik to Germany, we have an overland route from Sweden to Narvik before the sea passage. Admiral von Spee received his orders to invade the Falklands while his ships were at Valparaiso in Chile. Was there some kind of secret accord with Chile and Argentina for a road link from Iquique to Buenos Aires where the material would be put aboard ship and then escorted to Europe by battlecruisers based at the Falklands? Road transport across neutral territory was far swifter and safer than bringing the material by sea.
All opinions gratefully received.