Foo-Fighters Were German: The Evidence

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Luftwaffe air units and general discussions on the Luftwaffe.
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Grzesio
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Post by Grzesio » 08 Nov 2005 09:49

Let me point one thing out, please.
I can see that you pay big, big attention to Igor Witkowski's books. I live in Poland and so I have some wider knowledge about his works and their quality.
The problem is, the guy is widely considered a complete idiot here, building ridiculous theories by misinterpreting facts, manipulating with data and neglecting any evidence countering his point of view. His reliability as a researcher is simply nonexistent. Numerous abuses and mistakes were pointed to him, but he simply ignores any discussion and continues his fairy tales as if nothing happened. Even his books about 'usual' German weapons (as tanks, aircraft etc.) are full of the most idiotic errors that one can hardly believe.
Basically I find one thing interesting in his books - reproductions of archive documents (but be warned - as it was proved by Bartosz Rdułtowski in his excellent "V-7 Syndrome", Witkowski reproduced one document about UFO sightngs in such a way, that the date, which doesn't fit his theory, is invisible in the book).

Regards

Grzesio

roggenwolf
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Post by roggenwolf » 08 Nov 2005 10:29

Grzesio wrote:Let me point one thing out, please.
I can see that you pay big, big attention to Igor Witkowski's books. I live in Poland and so I have some wider knowledge about his works and their quality.
The problem is, the guy is widely considered a complete idiot here, building ridiculous theories by misinterpreting facts, manipulating with data and neglecting any evidence countering his point of view. His reliability as a researcher is simply nonexistent.


Not only Witkowski, but Terziski (Bulgaria's answer to George Adamski!) ... Grzesio, I'd very much appreciate it, if you could tell me more about Witkowski? I've been researching the whole topic, but it's difficult to find unbiased English-language sources that say much about the man. His own website says nothing at all!

Cheers! :D

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Grzesio
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Post by Grzesio » 08 Nov 2005 15:19

I think you know his official biography: http://www.igorwitkowski.com/bio.html?
What's not written, Witkowski was the e-i-c of the "Technika Wojskowa" very briefly, a year or so. In mid 1990s he started to write about UFO and aliens ("Wizyty z nieba" - Visits from the skies, "Ksiega dowodów" - The book of proofs), somehow in von Daeniken's fashion.
Then he published his first book about German secret weapons - "Tajne bronie Hitlera" (Hitler's secret weapons), dealing with V-1, V-2, Rheinbote etc. The book has a lot of errors and was compiled from other works, probably Lusar and maybe Hoelskien.
Shortly afterwards a new edition of it was published, called "Supertajne bronie Hitlera" (Hitler's super-secret weapons), being basically the previous one wit a couple of chapters added, where the topic of German flying soucers surfaced for the first time (in connection with the Riese compound in Lower Silesia). This volume gave birth to a whole series of books "Supertajne bronie Hitlera" with subsequent numbers. The vol. 2 was dealing with German advanced weapons of WW2 - guided missiles, jet planes (incl. 'Luftwaffe 1946' projects), tanks, submarines, guns etc. - it is a strong candidate for the world's worst ever book on the subject - Witkowski presented himself as a complete dilettante and there's practically no page in the book without more or less serious mistakes - some really hair raising, what's really surprising as these topics have really good books published. I cannot remember, but I think he mentioned German flying discs here, repeating the story after Lusar's book.
Then he produced vol. 3 - about Vrils, Haunebus, the Glocke - this is the milestone, when he decided to prove to the whole world, that Germans had built flying object using antigravity.
Image
He uncritically presented obviously fake 'German' documents presenting flying saucers (with spelling and language errors), he was also supporting his theories with well documented proofs like "one officer said that...", "it's known that..." etc. He even managed to write in one place, that the Glocke was killing every living organism in its vicinity and Germans failed to neutralize this till the end of the war, while for the rest of the book he deals with Glocke-powered manned saucers, which were flying from 1940 or so.
Probably around this time he started his archive research and travels abroad (as his earlier volumes vere obviously based on a couple of books, he had at hand). Later volumes were dealing with some more advanced concepts of German weapons (including atomic bombs, Sanger bomber, etc. - vol. 5) and evacuation of German scientists to South America (vol. 5). A lot of the material was based on contemporary intelligence reports (not neccesarily verified). Vols. 6 and 7 are about German underground factories (6) and secret weapons again (7 - this time it's mostly about guided missiles, IR equipment, homing devices) - these are written basing mostly on Allied intelligence reports and post war analysis' of captured German documents, plus some modern books Witkowski found in the meantime. Vol. 8 deals with Wehrwolf, once again with use of Allied documents.
Witkowski's international effort "The truth about the Wunderwaffe" (Polish version is also published) is mostly made of volumes 1, 2, 3 and 7 put together, with some new concepts added, showing evolution of his ideas - basically now he thinks that German antigravitional vehicles were barrel shaped, while earlier he saw them as saucers (but he still can prove their new shape with exactly the same witness accounts as the previous one).
Witkowski doesn't bother with such silly problems as copyrights, copying pictures and drawings without mercy (and without quoting sources) in his books.
As far as his reliability is concerned, I can mention a tasty case of a witness who, according to Witkowski, saw "giant halls with powerful steel gates" in the Riese undergroud compound - sadly the actual account says about "rooms with steel doors" - but he modified it to fit his dreams. Witkowski also e.g. believes, the Fw Triebfluegel was built and flown - he published a photo of Guenther Sengfelder's scale model twice and described it as "Triebfliegel on the landing pad" and "the only known picture of the prototype" respectively - what I cannot call in another way than an insolent lie.
One of his most famous sallies is a so-called "fly catcher". He found a circular concrete frame structure in Ludwikowice Kłodzkie coal mine, where he believes these German saucers were tested, and identified it as a test stand for VTOL vehicles, due to similarity to present stands for testing helicopters (called "fly catchers") - what proved beyond all doubts thad Germans had these Vrils indeed.
Image
It was quickly discovered that the structure is in fact a lower part of a steam cooler from a local powerplant (there's even a photo showing it complete) - but Witkowski completely ignored the fact and continued to present it as a VTOL testing stand. He simply takes any suspicion, rumour, urban legend, even the most silly and unconfirmed, and treats it as a well documented fact - and if some real facts don't fit his theories, the worse for the facts.
And so on...
As I wrote - his reliability among military enthusiasts in Poland is simply nonexistent. He is only refered to in discussions as a liar, dreamer or even madman etc.

Regards

Grzesio

roggenwolf
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Post by roggenwolf » 08 Nov 2005 15:44

Thanks very much for all that, Grzesio! I've seen the photo of the structure in Ludwikowice Kłodzkie in several publications of dubious integrity, echoing Witkowski's claim; to me, it always looked like the old gas cylinder stands that we have around Sydney.

Clearly, I have a lot to add, when I get around to dealing with this particular 'expert'.

btw, did you know that he also gave W. A. Harbinson (author of the Projekt Saucer series of books) a guided tour of all the sites, in Poland?

Thanks again! :D

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Davide Pastore
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Re: Foo-Fighters Were German: The Evidence

Post by Davide Pastore » 03 Dec 2005 15:56

roggenwolf wrote:According to Italian UFO researcher Maurizio Verga, Vesco was born in Arona [...]


Maybe I'm arriving a bit late... However, are all these info about Vesco's bio available somewhere (in book form, hopefully)?
I'm asking this because I'm very interested in the man, having read all his books (three so far, AFAIK - last chapter of last book dealing with Mars successfully colonized by RAF during the '50s... [really!] :wink: ).

(a bit of web search has resulted in URL like this
http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/abwatch/ ... iufo3.html
which, however, does not provide much evidence / reference / sources / etc. for Verga's claims. I would like to know more)

Disclaimer: I'm not saying I really believe Vesco - Just curious. At the very least, his books are intriguing.

Davide

roggenwolf
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Post by roggenwolf » 03 Dec 2005 23:01

Davide, it's such a pleasure to hear from someone that knows Vesco wrote three book! In the English-speaking world, only the first is known; the other two were never translated.

So far as I know, the biographical details collected by Maurizio Verga aren't available in book form (yet), but you can find them at http://www.naziufos.com/new1k1/people/vesco.htm.

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Davide Pastore
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Post by Davide Pastore » 04 Dec 2005 06:38

roggenwolf wrote:Davide, it's such a pleasure to hear from someone that knows Vesco wrote three book! In the English-speaking world, only the first is known; the other two were never translated.


Have you read them?


roggenwolf wrote:you can find them at http://www.naziufos.com/new1k1/people/vesco.htm.


Seen (also the linked Italian magazine). However, the article failed to substantiate its claim that "Vesco was not a fully licensed engineer", in exactly the same way as 1969 Argosy had failed to claim the opposite. I would have liked to read something like: "I know he was so & so, because I've interviewed a former collegue of him who met him in year 19xx at place Y...", "...because I found his name in the list of employees at...", "...because Arona archives, which I've personally checked, show that he was born there in..."

Failing that, it's just gut feeling! You may choose to believe it or not, depending on your liking / dislike for the person.

P.S. (maybe slightly OT - sorry) The last nail in the coffin (Italian saying) of Vesco's theory was the 1983 Falkland war. Whatever reason had the British for keeping their saucer secret, they would never have sacrificed their ships to keep it. The more so because the attacking Argentinian planes could have just "disappeared" in the middle of the ocean, without eyewitness. I wonder what Vesco had to say about it...

Davide

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Post by roggenwolf » 04 Dec 2005 07:47

Hi, Davide,

No, I can't say that I've read them: my grasp on Italian is very shaky. Still, I've heard of them, which is more than many English-speakers can say.

You're correct, when you say that Verga doesn't substantiate his claims on the site; but it coincides with a lot of the reading I have done over the past few years. He claims to have met Vesco, at least, which is more than most can say; and Kevin McClure trusts Verga's research. Since I trust Kevin McClure (although I don't always agree with is conclusions and, sometimes, I think that he should have read a little more, too) more than I trust the evidence led by supporters of the "German Secret Weapons Hypothesis" (GSWH), I'm prepared to accept Verga's credentials. (At least until such time as anyone can demonstrate that he is untrustworthy. :lol: )

This is actually a large part of the problem with researching the GSWH: even the least reliable source - on either side of the argument - seems to have some truth mixed in with their claims. As I study, I actually find that the earlier claims, at least, were based on real-world events. True, they have been accidentally misinterpreted, deliberately misrepresented, or otherwise distorted, but there is, nonetheless, usually something behind them ...

Take Vesco's claims, for example: there is no way I could take any of them at face value because he cites no verifiable sources, to support them. Still, he seems to have included many clues to the ordinary - and verifiable - things on which his more controversial claims are based. I have actually come to suspect that Intercettateli Senza Sparare was actually a kind of practical joke, written to see just how gullible those people, who, in the 1960s and 1970s, really wanted to believe in 'flying saucers' actually could be.

If you've read Pupilli's eulogy on Vesco, then I think you might understand why I believe Vesco was a very lonely and rather cynical man ...

Even Zündel - who, IMO, did for bullsh*t what Stonehenge did for rocks - managed to draw some (very little) material, which is based on fact, into his stories - for all that it seems he was really only interested in parting fools from their money and building an audience for his other, less savoury, claims. Later claims, however - such as those made by Witkowski and Terziyski - seem to be something else entirely. There's nothing to redeem them and, if these guys aren't genuinely in need of treatment, then they are surely to be counted among the least scrupulous, more avaricious people of whom I have ever heard!

IMHO, of course ... :wink:

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Davide Pastore
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Post by Davide Pastore » 04 Dec 2005 09:27

roggenwolf wrote:Hi, Davide


Hi, Roggenwolf

roggenwolf wrote:No, I can't say that I've read them: my grasp on Italian is very shaky. Still, I've heard of them, which is more than many English-speakers can say.


Brief resumé:

Book #2 - "I Velivoli del Mistero: I Segreti Tecnici dei Dischi Volanti" [The Mystery Planes: Technical Secrets of Flying Saucers] (1969).
It is much similar to the first one, being a collection of info bits about secret Nazi wonder weapons (some of them quite interesting: for example, the projected electro-magnetical railguns, built in two prototypes of 5mm and 10mm caliber - according to Vesco, of course... :wink: ) interspersed with a collection of info bits about UFO behaviour, the idea being to demonstrate the connection between the two facts.

Book #3 - "Operazione Plenilunio - I Voli Spaziali dei Dischi Volanti" [Operation "Full Moon": Flying Saucers' Space Flights] (1972).
It has lees space devoted to Nazi machines (except a chapter about nuclear devices) replaced by late '40s British plans and ideas. For example, there is a very interesting spaceship model shown at a 1946 UK technical fair, very weird - shaped as planet Saturn - which Vesco taking pain to show its resemblance with some UFOs, as well as its derivation from the above-noted Nazi nuclear devices [as engine]. There is also a long description of 1940-50s ideas about space explorations (many of them quite sound, much more than squandering a 1,000t missile just to deposite three men on the Moon) but of course 90% of this book is Off-Topic here.

Davide

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Post by JAJACEK » 14 Dec 2005 16:14

Igor Witkowski? :lol: :lol: :lol:

roggenwolf
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Post by roggenwolf » 14 Dec 2005 16:29

JAJACEK wrote:Igor Witkowski? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Thanks, Jajacek. I'll take that as confirmation of the average (intelligent, rational, sane, etc.) Pole's opinion of the infamous Mr Witkowski. :D

Now, if I could get some comments about Vladimir Terziski, I'd be a much happier camper. This guy is harder to trace than a politician's travel expenses! :lol:

btw, be prepared to be quoted.

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Post by MAX_theHitMan » 26 Dec 2005 02:08

JAJACEK wrote:Igor Witkowski? :lol: :lol: :lol:


:lol: :lol: :lol:

I know , but his books are fun to read.
Sort of like Tolkien´s Lord of the Rings.
Fantasy writing makes good dreaming at night.
BUT never believe "everything" you read.
I don´t.
I just like to dream of things that could have been.
Sort of like looking at the beautiful pictures in Dan Johnson´s website "Luft`46" and dream of all the wonderful possibilities that could have been in aircraft...just maybe...just maybe.

But we all know what is real?...right? ...and what is fantasy :wink:

By the way folks...this Christmas Holiday season, go outside at night...look at the night sky and the stars...and you might just spot a "foo fighter".

Merry Christmas and have fun everyone. :wink:
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krztalizer
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Every thing an airman reports is true. or not.

Post by krztalizer » 27 Dec 2005 12:22

What bothers me about much of the 'evidence' of "foo fighters" is that people do not take into account the mind-set of the men making many of the reports. I flew for the military for a few years and my job on the ground was to teach them how to identify various flying objects, as well as ships, submarines, and other military equipment. What struck me as sad throughout my career was that even the most senior, best trained aviators tended to be _horrible_ at aerial threat recognition, even under daylight CAVU conditions.

Invariably, in the hours after dark, what little ability airmen have to identify airborne objects pretty much evaporates. That doesn't even require the injection of fear that comes from flying combat missions at night, which adds an entirely new dimension to the level of errors you can expect in contact reports.

Example: the "Jet Scare" of Sept 1944. At Rechlin, a pilot rec'd permission to test-fly an Me 262 at night. Allied SIGINT picked up some shred of the signals traffic between Rechlin and Berlin that whispered a connection between night operations and jet aircraft. With that tiny bit of fact, a remarkable chain of events occurred - the report was filtered, pasteurized, condensed, and ultimately, some version of it was presented to RAF and RCAF aircrews, beginning in Sept 1944. The briefers even came up with a code word for a contact report, and counter-tactics. Airmen took *real* good notes...

Note - at the time of the briefings, there were /no/ operational flights by Me 262s anywhere in the Reich. But in the days and weeks following the Intel briefings concerning "night jets", a total of 44 combat reports were filed by RAF and RCAF bomber crews that claimed they saw, were attacked, or shot at Me 262s and even Me 163s _at night_. These weren't listed as "unknown e/a"; the airmen involved actually claimed they witnessed Me 163s and 262s attacking their bombers from the North Sea to the south of France, and spread across Germany. What all 44 reports had in common is this: not one of the reports from Sept-Nov 1944 equated to an actual, logged flight by a 262 or 163, or any type of attack by one of them. That's 0-for-44. Power of suggestion alone.

We have reports of dozens of blue-on-blue combats during the war, day and night, where "German-marked P-47s" and Mustangs attacked allied formations (hint: NO); Gabby and other aces have victory boards painted on the sides of their fighters claiming to have shot down numerous Me 209s; Mosquitoes were shot up by P-61 crews that SWORE they saw "black crosses, clearly seen under the wings of the Ju 88", etc., etc., ad nauseum. My point? That airmen in the midst of a night flight (high stress), in times of conflict (high stress multiplier), ofter THINK they see something that just plain isn't accurate. For a more modern example, a few years ago an Air Force pilot _in daylight_ "visually ID'd two 'Hind helicopters' and shot them down" in Northern Iraq. Except they were H-60 Blackhawks, filled with our own guys.

Gentlemen, it is SOO easy to "see things" at night that under different circs, you would be able to instantly identify if there weren't so many stress factors changing your perception. Before you grab onto a 415th NFS report of mystery balls of light that suddenly become a secret German weapon that doesn't seem to attack anything... think!

v/r Gordon

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Post by roggenwolf » 27 Dec 2005 14:00

It's very interesting that you should mention these factors, krztalizer. The conclusions I've drawn, based on my own research so far, is that most of the foo fighter sightings could easily be attributed to misidentification of natural phenomena and/or conventional aircraft. So far as the natural phenomena go, I've identified ball lightning, fata morgana and sun dogs as likely candidates; the latter seem plausible, based on season and the altitudes at which some of the reporting aircraft must have been flying.

I have also been in the military (ground forces, not air forces), and I know just how 'twitchy' a person can get, under combat conditions. It's truly wonderful, the things a person can see, when they're sleep-deprived, cold, hungry and just plain scared. So far as foo-fighters go, I also imagine that estimates of size, distance and speed must be just about impossible to make, at night, in a sky with no known features to provide a frame of reference.

Listen: for some ungodly reason, I'm actually working on a book that operates from the assumption that all of the stories of German disc-shaped aircraft are a kind of legend, built upon distortions of historical fact or elaborations on earlier stories. I'd be very interested to discuss your p.o.v. and experiences, in detail. Would you be willing to talk more about this?

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Post by PPoS » 27 Dec 2005 18:40

That airmen in the midst of a night flight (high stress), in times of conflict (high stress multiplier) -
And I know just how 'twitchy' a person can get, under combat conditions


Gentlemen, I totally agree you on the subject that it's very easy to misidentify airborne objects during both day and night .. But as you pick up the subject of stress factors during combat conditions I must point out that most reported sightings of "Foo's" where not during combat conditions.

Of course stress and loss of sleep makes a man pretty "twitchy" after just a couple of days but it must be hard to "misidentify" a German jetplane as a "glowing ball of fire" ..

Also, I've heard that the pilots who reported the "Foo" sightings said that it couldn't be jetplanes because the exhaust of the jet engine wasn't visible during the night .. Is this true ?

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