US war crime?

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Hannes
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US war crime?

Post by Hannes » 24 May 2004 16:39

Where and when this photo was shot? What about the context? (The photo was published in many books about Allied war crimes...) /Hannes
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Lipton
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Post by Lipton » 25 May 2004 14:14

My guess is it was made during the battle of the Bulge in Chenogne village, where 60 German P.O.W. were machine-gunned by 11. Armored Division for what they did near Malmedy.

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Post by fknorr » 25 May 2004 15:30

Lipton wrote:My guess is it was made during the battle of the Bulge in Chenogne village, where 60 German P.O.W. were machine-gunned by 11. Armored Division for what they did near Malmedy.
How did the 11th Armored know that all of these 60 individuals took part in the Malmedy Massacre? Did they all confess or just random payback?

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Post by Caldric » 25 May 2004 17:30

fknorr wrote:
Lipton wrote:My guess is it was made during the battle of the Bulge in Chenogne village, where 60 German P.O.W. were machine-gunned by 11. Armored Division for what they did near Malmedy.
How did the 11th Armored know that all of these 60 individuals took part in the Malmedy Massacre? Did they all confess or just random payback?
If I remember right it was just payback. They did not care if they were in Malmedy or not.

The problem with the picture is that the stated "war crimes" they were taken behind a small hill away from the enemy. That looks like it is in the town.
Last edited by Caldric on 26 May 2004 18:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Juha Hujanen
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Post by Juha Hujanen » 25 May 2004 19:31

Mayby they are not American troops but French.The same pic can be found in Franz Burda book-Der Zweite Weltkrieg Im Bild Band II from year 1952.

Caption goes:

Ein Französischer Säuberungstrupp geht in einer von den Verreidigern verlassenen Straße eines elsässischen Dorfes vor.Die leichen deutcher soldaten und das chaotische Durch einander der Ausrüstungsstücke,die den Boden bedecken,legen Zeugnis von der Heftigkeit des voraufgegangenen Kampfes ab

That suggest that troops are French and place is Elsass.

What do you think?

Regards/Juha

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Post by Rob - wssob2 » 26 May 2004 01:18

Hannes/Lipton: Why is this photo supposedly of a "war crime"? All it shows is some GI walking by some corpses. You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about this image but have provided no information on who took it, and where and when it was published.

I've just done a Google search and could only one entry (in the billions and billions of web pages on the internet) regarding the 11th Armored Division supposedly shooting 60 SS prisoners in Chenogne from verteidiger0.tripod.com/defendersofthereich/id11.html

That site doesn't exist anymore, but a google cache of the page is
In the village of Chenogne, the US 11th Armored Division had captured over sixty German soldiers. They were marched behind a small hill, out of sight of the Axis troops still holding the woods beyond the village, the prisoners were then machine-gunned. On the first day of 1945, the Americans were showing no mercy for their unfortunate prisoners as they crumpled to the ground, shot dead in cold blood. Killing had become impersonal, killing as many Germans as they could was now foremost in their minds. Small wonder though considering General Eisenhowers comment that Our primary purpose is the distruction of as many Germans as possible.
This "Defenders of the Reich" goes on and on and on about war crime after war crime committed by the Allies and Allied propaganda and how the Nazis were really victims of Churchill and Eisenhower yadda yadda yadda... :roll:

Juha just pointed out that these troops are supposed to be French, but thankfully provided a quote and a book source.

This photo also looks weird, as if it's been doctored.

This doesn't seem to be much "proof" of a war crime...

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Post by fknorr » 26 May 2004 02:01

Rob - WSSOB wrote:This doesn't seem to be much "proof" of a war crime...
There is as much proof of a crime as there is against it. Troops we know as either American or French (one one of the other nations we supplied), taken place "somewhere"...no location given.

Juha suggests that the troops are French and place is Elsass...but is also unsure.

Hannes posted a picture and asked questions...he made no claims only stated that it was published in books. I do not think he was attempting to "go all revisionist" as you seem to be insinuating.

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Post by Rob - wssob2 » 26 May 2004 03:28

There is as much proof of a crime as there is against it.
Actually, let me rephrase my comment: This photo is no proof of any US war crime. It seems to be just another unsubstiantiated, unverified allegation.


Juha suggests that the troops are French and place is Elsass...but is also unsure.
Juha at least provided a book as source and a quote for where he has seen the photo. Hannes just said "The photo was published in many books about Allied war crimes" but did not provide any additional information, and, contrary to your comment, is a claim.
I do not think he was attempting to "go all revisionist" as you seem to be insinuating.
No, but the only reference to the 11th Armored "war crime" mentioned by Lipton is from a pro-Nazi website filled with allegations and incorrect facts.

If you have some better information as to the context of the photo, then let's see it.

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Post by fknorr » 26 May 2004 13:24

rob, I will not do any of the selective quoting that you have done or reading between the lines but will point out a few things that you are overlooking for some reason or avoiding...

Hannes topic was "US War Crime ?"
There was no allegation there...a question mark usually means uncertainty. The next clue were his questions of: Where and when this photo was shot? What about the context?

This means he has no clue of whether it is a US war crime, if it was a crime at all, when it was shot or what is going on in the photo.

Again, no accusations or allegations.

He states that "The photo was published in many books about Allied war crimes"...but does not state (like some here) that this photo is definitive proof of US crimes (or the opposite), only asking questions and stating where he has seen the photo before.

As to Lipton's post, he did not state a source...

As to my posts, I do not claim to no one way or the other. You seem to know that it WAS NOT the 11th armored division. Where are YOUR sources that the 11th Armored was lily-white when so many other (allied) divisions do have (or are alleged to) have blotches against their records? I cannot ascertain from the photo whether or not it is American troops or troops simply wearing US equipment. It is even hard to tell that these are indeed German troops laying on the ground from the image, how are you coming to the conclusion that these are not US troops, that these troops (or the troops preceeding them) did not just kill whomever is laying on the ground?

This is just another photo that really shows very little but various individuals (for whatever reasons) read tons into them.

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Post by Lipton » 26 May 2004 14:49

fknorr wrote:As to Lipton's post, he did not state a source.
My source was http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres.html

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Post by Hannes » 26 May 2004 17:45

For example in Erich Kern's "Verbrechen am deutschen Volk" or in the book "Alliierte Kriegsverbrechen und Verbrechen gegen die Menschlichkeit" the pic is shown together with photos of gravestones. In these graves civilians and soldiers were buried that had been murdered by US forces in Bavaria, f. e. in Oberpframmern or Haar. The posted pic has no caption in both books, so I wanted to learn more about it. (In the books it's suggested that the photo shows a war crime!)
Last edited by Hannes on 26 May 2004 18:28, edited 4 times in total.

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Juha Hujanen
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Post by Juha Hujanen » 26 May 2004 17:45

One detail of that pic.The second soldiers wears long bayonet type of weapon on his hips.Its not Garand bayonet.It looks like long knife/bayonet that Goumiers Moroccan soldiers liked to use.That suggest also that soldiers could be French.

Regards/Juha

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Post by Hannes » 26 May 2004 18:19

Maybe the authors only wanted to illustrate the gravestone photos ... and choose this one, because it shows US/French soldiers next to German corpses, even it doesn`t deal with any crime nor with the killings in Bavaria?!

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Post by Panzermahn » 27 May 2004 11:34

Hannes/Lipton: Why is this photo supposedly of a "war crime"? All it shows is some GI walking by some corpses. You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about this image but have provided no information on who took it, and where and when it was published.
Rob-WSSOB, you are forgetting the exact same circumstances happened during the exhibition of Wehrmacht and the War of Extermination by the Hamburg Institute in 1995 where pictures were taken of German soldiers standing nearby hundreds of corpse and the majority of the people who saw those pictures assume them as war crimes committed by the Germans especially the picture of German soldiers standing by at Lvov..Thanks to clarification from the historian Bogdan Musial, some of the miscaptioned pictures were replaced where i believe Michael Mills, a veteran poster had stated in somewhere this HC & W thread some execellent posts

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Post by Rob - wssob2 » 27 May 2004 11:39

Hanne’s statement

The photo was published in many books about Allied war crimes...
implies that this photo has something to do with a war crime.

Lipton went on to suggest that it’s a photo of the US 11th Armored Division at Chenogne village, where they supposedly shot 60 German PWs in retaliation for the Malmedy massacre. He sites the George Duncan massacre website as a source.


Fknorr states
You seem to know that it WAS NOT the 11th armored division. Where are YOUR sources that the 11th Armored was lily-white when so many other (allied) divisions do have (or are alleged to) have blotches against their records?
I just checked Michael Reynolds Sons of the Reich – a history of the II SS Panzer Korps – and could find no mention of this alleged US war crime. The reason I checked this book is because if this claim held water, Reynolds would mention it, since the SS troops supposedly shot would probably come from the II SS Korps.

I’ve compiled a list of some websites on the 11th AD. I couldn’t find any mention of the “war crime”, but here they are in case you want to dig deeper:

United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?la ... d=10006142

(note the 11th AD liberated the Mauthausen & Gusen KZ in the spring of 1945; it was also the unit the 3rd SS "Totenkopf" division attempted to surrender to)

Grunts.net
http://www.grunts.net/army/11thamr.html


11th Armored Division Association website
http://www.11tharmoreddivision.com/

United States Army Center for Military History
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/lineage/cc/011ad.htm
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/documents/et ... AD-ETO.htm


"Battle of the Bulge" website 11th AD fact sheet
http://www.battleofthebulge.org/fact/fa ... ed_di.html

Seeing a war crime claim on George Duncan’s website or mentioned in Erich Kern’s Alliierte Kreigsverbrechen und Verbrechen Gegen die Menschlichkeit" (Allied War Crimes and Crimes against Humanity) isn’t enough for me. It the claim has any evidence, that evidence will be found in multiple sources.

BTW what are the “so many” Allied divisions that have blotches that you speak about? As Dave Thompson says – the burden of proof is on the claimant.

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