Did Messerschmitt cheat?

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brustcan
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Did Messerschmitt cheat?

Post by brustcan » 03 Jun 2004 22:15

After the rejection of the He-112, in favor of the Me-109, Heinkel decided to build a new plane capable of a speed of 450mph. On January 22, 1938 the He-100V-1 flew for the first time. Using a DB601A engine, the He-100V-2 reached the speed of 394mph on June 6, 1938. The engine used was the normal DB engine, as used in the Me-109. At this point Heinkel decided to go for the world speed record. The He-100V-8, with smaller
wings, and canopy, and a finish hand rubbed to perfection, was powered
by a 1,800Hp DB601R engine. Methyl alcohol/gasoline fuel mixture, gave the aircraft the world record on March 30, 1939 at 463.92mph. Messerchmitt had been working on a future replacement for the Me-109
and on August 1, 1938 the Me-209V-1 flew the first time with a DB601A
engine. On February 8, 1939 the Me-209V-2 reached a speed of 373mph.
Hearing of Heinkel's record flight, Messerschmitt re-engined the Me-209V-1
with a special engine, DB601ARJ producing 2,300Hp. This aircraft set the
world speed record to 469.22mph on April 2, 1939. This record held until August 1969, when it was broken by a Grumman Bearcat. The engine in the Me-209 was a one of a kind engine, bearly lasting 30 minutes, after which it was a total wreck. The Heinkel engine relied on a higher compression ratio and special gas, but still had many more hours of use.
The He-100 was a tested aircraft and could have gone into service, the same could not be said of the Me-209. Poor Heinkel, he was going to use
a specially modified engine, and the air minstry forbid him to make another attempt. Did Messerchmitt cheat, having a special engine built for him, and then the air ministry siding with him? thanks brustcan

varjag
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Post by varjag » 05 Jun 2004 14:23

Brustcan - isn't there an element of cheating in ALL W/Record attempts?Willy Messerschmitt had much better 'pull' with the RLM than Ernst Heinkel which may have favoured him but both built 'racers' for the record attempts - not combat aircraft. The He 100 was declined because of its evapoprative cooling system, the Me 209 for it's poor flying performance.Besides - the world record set by the Me 209 - remained unknown to the world for several years. 'The World' was told that it had been set by an Me 109R - 'very similar to the standard Luftwaffe fighter...' - and bought it!
Which was as much B/S as Goebbels was known for. But the cheating didn't stop there - Goebbels then went on to 'invent' the He 113 (aka He 100V-8) with a top speed of 450 mph - duly 'encountered in combat' by RAF pilots...So, there was a lot of cheating going on there. Only the claims were true. Those German aircraft DID actually, under FAI rules - reach those speeds at that time. There was a further rumour of cheating/bending the FAI rules at the time. The Me 209R had severe cooling problems and the rumours said that after warm-up to op-temps before take-off - the coolant tank/system was drained and replaced with cool liquid just before the take-off run...true or false?

brustcan
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Post by brustcan » 06 Jun 2004 01:02

varjag wrote:Brustcan - isn't there an element of cheating in ALL W/Record attempts?Willy Messerschmitt had much better 'pull' with the RLM than Ernst Heinkel which may have favoured him but both built 'racers' for the record attempts - not combat aircraft. The He 100 was declined because of its evapoprative cooling system, the Me 209 for it's poor flying performance.Besides - the world record set by the Me 209 - remained unknown to the world for several years. 'The World' was told that it had been set by an Me 109R - 'very similar to the standard Luftwaffe fighter...' - and bought it!
Which was as much B/S as Goebbels was known for. But the cheating didn't stop there - Goebbels then went on to 'invent' the He 113 (aka He 100V-8) with a top speed of 450 mph - duly 'encountered in combat' by RAF pilots...So, there was a lot of cheating going on there. Only the claims were true. Those German aircraft DID actually, under FAI rules - reach those speeds at that time. There was a further rumour of cheating/bending the FAI rules at the time. The Me 209R had severe cooling problems and the rumours said that after warm-up to op-temps before take-off - the coolant tank/system was drained and replaced with cool liquid just before the take-off run...true or false?
Hi varjag, you are right about the coolant tank, and Messerschmitt's "pull"
with the German air ministry. It was through Rodolph Hess, that Messerschmitt was able to compete in the fighter contract, which he won with the Me-109. Because of this connection Messerschmitt was able to get
Daimler Benz to build a special "one of a kind" engine, to be used only for the record attempt. Cheers brustcan

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Post by Kurt_Steiner » 06 Jun 2004 12:27

Had the He 100 won the competition, I don't think it would have added anything interesting to the Luftwaffe. The problem with their wings -too much surface, I think- couldn't be solved. Even Japan desestimated the plane.

Best regards

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Post by brustcan » 07 Jun 2004 17:36

Kurt_Steiner wrote:Had the He 100 won the competition, I don't think it would have added anything interesting to the Luftwaffe. The problem with their wings -too much surface, I think- couldn't be solved. Even Japan desestimated the plane.

Best regards
The original He-100 used surface evaporation cooling system in the wings,
but this was found to be not practical. The wings were changed and a oil cooler was hung under the fuselage like the P-51 Mustang. The He-100D
had a top speed of 416mph and a range of 625 miles compared to the
Me-109E which had a top speed of 348mph and a range of 410 miles. Two other items worth noting, was a wide landing gear, and a sliding canopy
that offered excellent vision. Cheers brustcan

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Post by Kurt_Steiner » 07 Jun 2004 17:52

It is said that it was proved in combat against the RAF. If the plane was so wonderful, why did not the Germans develop it? Or the Japanese?

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Post by varjag » 08 Jun 2004 00:19

The Russians also had some He-100's. A purchasing delegation visited Heinkel in October 1939 and a test-pilot flew one of the prototypes. On 11/2/40 a contract for 10 a/c was signed by the Russians and some of the Versuchs-series were delivered to the Soviet Union in June 1940. The Russians probably were more interested in the evaporate cooling system than the aircraft themselves.

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Post by brustcan » 10 Jun 2004 21:34

varjag wrote:The Russians also had some He-100's. A purchasing delegation visited Heinkel in October 1939 and a test-pilot flew one of the prototypes. On 11/2/40 a contract for 10 a/c was signed by the Russians and some of the Versuchs-series were delivered to the Soviet Union in June 1940. The Russians probably were more interested in the evaporate cooling system than the aircraft themselves.
Although the original prototype had a evaporate cooling system, this was dis-continued in the final 10 aircraft. Too many problems such as wings
warping due to high coolent temperature. By putting an oil cooler under
the fuselage, Heinkel found it offered less drag, than one under each wing.
No matter how "good" the plane was, it was doomed. The RLM told Heinkel to build bombers...and Messerschmitt to build fighters. However there was no stopping Heinkel, he wanted to build a high speed aircraft. Knowing that the limitations were reached with the piston engined He-100, Heinkel turned to building a jet aircraft, and flew at speeds that were never thought possible. Cheers brustcan

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Post by varjag » 11 Jun 2004 11:35

It is debatable how many He 100's were actually delivered to the S.U. But those that were - seem to have been early Versuchs; V 1, V4 and V 6 amongst them.

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Me 109R vs. He 100D

Post by Topspeed » 15 Jun 2004 17:58

Kurt_Steiner wrote:It is said that it was proved in combat against the RAF. If the plane was so wonderful, why did not the Germans develop it? Or the Japanese?
Kurt,

The Heinkel He 100V-8 lost to the 109R by less than 6 mph and further developement of Heinkel 100D was prohibited.

It is obvious that a Heinkel 100V-8 was a better aircraft because it obtained the speed with 500 hp weaker engine..had the Heinkel 100V-8 had the same DB 601ARJ engine it may have flown beyond 500 mph ( 500+ hps had given the 109R 90 mph more speed ! ).

I think Heinkel's racer He 100V-8 is still the fastest piston plane ever to fly ca. 464 mph with just a 1800 hp engine. Almost faster than any WW II piston fighters ( Do 335 and Ta 152 H-1 were apparently faster at certain altitudes ). Almost forgot; P-51 H ( 2 200 hp ) was a 489 mph plane in 1945, it never saw any combat.

The competition aim was to find out which plane was faster and both had their shots. Since Willy used an special engine by help of the high party officers it was obviously not an even match.

How many athletes use illegal drugs and win ? Competition is seldom fair in the world..certainly not today..most definitely not in nazi ruled Germany in 1937-1945.

Ernst Heinkels design rises a lot of questions..how fast could a small purpose built inline engined piston plane fly ? There has been one such attempt with a 100 % purpose built inline engined racer called Tsunami ( Reno,NV,USA ) and it has been recorded of having been the second fastest piston plane ever, only loosing to a F8F-2 modified RARE BEAR radialpiston engined racer which is currently the fastest piston plane in existence today. Record speed is now at 528 mph ( some 850 km/h ).

Tsunami flew with powersettings definitely beyond 2800 hp ( maybe 3200 hp ). Bearcat Rare Bear R-3350 engine produces some 4500 hp.

By the end of the war German RLM had studied also pistonplanes that would be able to reach 930 km/h ( 577 mph ). These were all of pusher layout..propellor and impellor ( the latter opposite direction running prop ) were at the rear.

PS: Finnish Air Force ordered in 1943 a new indigenous interceptor. 5 concepts were studied of which one was a small wooden fighter ( Puuska ) with a 1350 hp DB engine that was to fly 700+ km/h armed with single 20 mm cannon. There were other studies too and a bigger inline plane with DB engine was built..after the war ( Pyörremyrsky ). It had a lot better turning radius than a Me 109, but topspeed was inferior. In fact Puuska was alot like a Heinkel 100D.

Here is an artist impression of the Puuska fighter:

http://www.luft46.com/rmart/rmpm-3.jpg

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Post by gabriel pagliarani » 18 Jun 2004 07:07

brustcan wrote:The original He-100 used surface evaporation cooling system in the wings,....Cheers brustcan
The evaporating cooler device never worked correctly. "Freon" gases was discovered by Du Pont de Nemours only after WW2. This cooling device works with Freon and it is installed on the Shuttle. Germans used explosive alcohols. 8) This is all about the He-100/113 mistery.

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Post by Topspeed » 18 Jun 2004 10:59

I see,

So the He 100d-1 and He 100v-8 had totally different cooling systems.

Like shown here:

http://avia.russian.ee/air/germany/he-100.html

Can we then ask did Ernst Heinkel cheat ?

Heinkel fighter 100D was still faster in 1938 than Me 109 in 1944.

JT :)

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Post by gabriel pagliarani » 18 Jun 2004 14:58

Topspeed wrote:I see...Heinkel fighter 100D was still faster in 1938 than Me 109 in 1944.

JT :)
Evidently top speed wasn't the most relevant feature for Ernst Udet and his staff. He personally tried in any way to push its own choice for an open canopy, exactly as per italians Fiat G 50 and Macchi Mc 200. Strange or not, this has been well reported.

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Post by Topspeed » 18 Jun 2004 15:27

Hello Gabriel Pagliarani,


You are Italian aren't ya ?
Where in Italy do you live?

Fiat G.50 was a very tough fighter and able to dive 850 km/t, this was tested when Lieutenant Harmaja was flying it in Italy..plane was scrapped after that.

Fiat pilots scored 80 enemies in Finland with them..2 were lost in combat.
1/40 killratio makes it a good fighter aeroplane in aerial warfare. Of course this is a statistical illusion. Enemy was poorly trained flying obsolete I-16s and I-153s.
Some difficulties in resin oil and such systems. Very formidable to fly and maneuverable. Already obsolete in starting of the Continuation War.

I wonder if Ernst Heinkel was assigned to work in bombers and Willy Messerschmitt on fighters at the beginning of the war.

See the Puuska project..that was yet smaller than He 100D..Puuska was 7.8 m spanning..some 1.6 meters less span than in a He 100D..I think they had the specs right for it; 700+ km/h was a good estimate for the speed.

JT / Oulu / Finland

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Post by gabriel pagliarani » 19 Jun 2004 07:55

Topspeed wrote:Hello Gabriel Pagliarani,


You are Italian aren't ya ?
Where in Italy do you live?

Fiat G.50 was a very tough fighter and able to dive 850 km/t, this was tested when Lieutenant Harmaja was flying it in Italy..plane was scrapped after that.

Fiat pilots scored 80 enemies in Finland with them..2 were lost in combat.
1/40 killratio makes it a good fighter aeroplane in aerial warfare. Of course this is a statistical illusion. Enemy was poorly trained flying obsolete I-16s and I-153s.
Some difficulties in resin oil and such systems. Very formidable to fly and maneuverable. Already obsolete in starting of the Continuation War.

I wonder if Ernst Heinkel was assigned to work in bombers and Willy Messerschmitt on fighters at the beginning of the war.

See the Puuska project..that was yet smaller than He 100D..Puuska was 7.8 m spanning..some 1.6 meters less span than in a He 100D..I think they had the specs right for it; 700+ km/h was a good estimate for the speed.

JT / Oulu / Finland
My location is Castel Fusano at the seaside of Rome, close to Ostia.About Fiat G50 in Finland I had a post in the forum with some other Finns 1 year ago. Effectively this plane wasn't studied for so extreme arctic environment, however it served honestly. About those braves lost on duty I know they are lovely cared by Finns, so it is better their stay there. In Italy nobody knows and nobody remember them, now they are Finns among Finns. About record-planes all the Powers used the same rules. Nothing strange a special engine has a life so short: till last year the same rule was applied in Formel 1 and all the "bigs" used engines lasting only few minutes during qualifications. Nothing new under the Sun-light!

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