Wehrmacht crimes in Poland in 1939 campaign

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szopen
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Wehrmacht crimes in Poland in 1939 campaign

Post by szopen » 08 Jun 2004 13:44

Ok, i will post here events which i will find dealing with Wehrmacht soldiers behaviour in September 1939. I am not posting it into "Wehrmacht units implicated into crimes" since in that thread had to be documented crimes: and i am posting info found on the web and in my books...

Note, that from more than 700 cases researched by Polish IPN and then recently given to German jurisdiction no Wehrmacht soldier was in any way punished. All crimes were excused by, for example "conditions of fighting the partisan war"

http://www.geocities.com/opocznohistoria/zbniem1.htm

1. September 8th, Odrzywoly: Polish medical column with red crossed etc is shooted at by German soldiers from 13 panzewr division from XIV corps. During actions in the same locality German units are using civilians as living shields.

2. German soldiers from the same division killed 11 civilians in Drzewica in 8 and 9 september, probably as revenge for the resistance given by Polish military units in area.

http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/zbro ... ia_wrz.htm

3. September 2-3rd between Wadzim and Rybnik few Polish soldiers captured by Wehrmacht were ordered to lie down on ground and then tanks drove over them

4. September the 4th Bugaj, gm. Dmenin, pow. Radomsko two polish pilots were captuted by German units from 4 panzer division from XVI corps. One of prisoners was tortured and then murdered.

5. September the 4th in Opatowiec, pow. Pińczów, German soldiers shot 45 Polish PoWs. Crime done by 2nd light division from XV corps of 10 army.

6. September the 5th In village Toporzysko-Bystra Germans captured single Polish soldier, who was then ordered to run and was shot during "trying to escape". Crime done by 2. panzer division of XVIII corps of 14 army.

7. September the 5th in forestnearn Buchardztw, pow Kartuzy,
German soldiers from 207 infantry division from 5 army shot Polish PoW from BON, known by name: Brunon Formela from Kartuzy.

8. September the 5th, Serock, po Swiecie: in night Germans suddenly started to shoot to Polish PoWs which were placed there for night.

9. September the 6th, in Zreczyce, pow Myslecie, Germans shot few civilians and 4 Polish PoWs

10. September the 6th, in Moryca, Germans shot 19 captured Polish officers from 76pp, and burned alive other taken PoWs from that unit.

11. September the 6th Czermno, gm Czermno, pow Kosnkie, Germans shot one PoW. Crime done by soldiers of 4. DP VIII Korpusu 10. army.

12. September the 7th or 8th Cukrowka, 13 soldiers were shot, of which however one survived and after German unit left was taken care by local population.

13. September the 8th, Mszczonow, pow. Blonie: 2 Polish PoWs shot by German soldiers.
14. September the 8th, Mszczonow, pow Blonie: Germans publicly shot 11 prisoners, 8 in uniforms and 3 in civilian clothes. Crime done by 4. DPanc. XVI Korpusu 10. Armii.

14. September the 8th, Nadarzym pow Blone, 2 German soldiers
took unknown Polish mayor to the field and ordered him to dig a grave for himslef. During diggin mayor suddenly attacked with his spade soldiers, killed one of hime because was shot by another.

15. September the 9th, Skaryszew, pow Radom, German soldiers killed 2 soldiers which were trying to give up, with their hands raisen to the up.

16. September the 9th, Ludwikowka, gm Bartoszowka, pow Blonie,
Soldiers from German 4. DPanc. XVI Korpusu 10. Armii shot another 2 Polish soldiers trying to give up.

17. September the 9th Ciepielow, German soldiers shot few civilians, including 10 y/o girl.

18. September the 10th, Piaseczno near Warsaw, German soldiers shot 21 PoWs - total PoWs were 30, but from unknown reasons some were spared.

19 September the 10th, Bielsk : commander of PoWs camp asked who from the prisoners volunteered to Polish army. Three PoWs who answered the question were shot in place.

20. September the 12th, Kozlowice, gm. Wiskitki, pow Blone, Germans shot 5 PoWs. Crime done by 2. Light division of XV corps of 10 army.

21. September the 12th, Sczucin, pow Dabrowa Tarnowska. PoWs were enamssed in building of the school Unidentified Polish officers grasp the pistol of German officer, shot him and then commited suicide. Germans took revenge on other PoWs, murdering all of them

22. September 13/14 In Zamborow Horses from wagons appeared amongst the prisoners. PoWs panicked. Germans started shoting at random for at least 10 minutes (few Germans soldiers were shot as well).
200 Polish PoWs were murdered, many of them may died from wounds during night, since no wounded Polish PoW received any help before the morning

23. September the 18th, Sladow, gm Tulowice, pow. Sochaczew, Germans shot and then drown in Vistula about 300 people, including about 150 PoWs. Crime done probably by 4. DPanc. XVI Korpusu 10. Armii.

24. September 20 San near Przemysl 100 Polish PoW were burned alive.
Only three were able to escape, one of them died from wound on second day in hospital in Drohobycz.

25. September the 20th, Majdan near Tomaszow Lubelski, German soldiers massacred 20 Polish PoWs.

26. September the 8th Ciepielow: Polish unit defending the area was defeated after attack by German tanks and when being out of ammo. Germans took the uniforms out of Polish Pows, From 450 taken PoWs 250 were shot in place, the rest was ordered to run. In total about 300 PoWs were murdered,

List of victims of SS, Wehrmacht etc during September campaign in Bedzin: (by name)
http://www.katowice.uw.gov.pl/opracowan ... olegli.htm
Last edited by szopen on 08 Jun 2004 15:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Rommel8
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Post by Rommel8 » 08 Jun 2004 15:29

#3 is...well...I dont know how to explain it...

tonyh
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Post by tonyh » 08 Jun 2004 15:33

Ridiculous..perhaps?

szopen
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Post by szopen » 08 Jun 2004 15:41

tonyh wrote:Ridiculous..perhaps?


Tonyh, I am not sure how to react to this. Ok, my English is bad. Still,
referring to fact that few Polish PoWs were killed by German tanks as "ridiculous" is behind my imagination.

Care to explain?

tonyh
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Post by tonyh » 08 Jun 2004 15:48

It sounds like fanciful nonsense.

szopen
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Post by szopen » 08 Jun 2004 15:53

tonyh wrote:It sounds like fanciful nonsense.


Tony, you already claiming that most of Wehrmacht and Luftwaffre crimes in Poland during september campaign is nonsense. I wonder whether you consider gas chambers also nonsense, 'cause if so, i would know what kind of person you are.

And why this would be nonsense? Or, for that matter, why Polish government institutions would create such nonsense?

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Marcus
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Post by Marcus » 08 Jun 2004 16:20

szopen,

Are these claims backed by any reliable printed sources?

In regard to events such as warcrimes, most websites unfortunately seem to be unreliable in my experience.

/Marcus

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Post by Panzermahn » 08 Jun 2004 16:30

3. September 2-3rd between Wadzim and Rybnik few Polish soldiers captured by Wehrmacht were ordered to lie down on ground and then tanks drove over them


Hi Szopen, i know that you're a very unbiased author on the matter on war crimes committed in poland, but the above allegation stated seems a bit far fetch without proof, don't you think?


This is the first time i heard about Wehrmacht troops ordered Polish POWs to lie down and the tanks drove over them squashing their bodies like bugs in WW2...

szopen
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Post by szopen » 08 Jun 2004 16:30

Marcus Wendel wrote:szopen,

Are these claims backed by any reliable printed sources?

In regard to events such as warcrimes, most websites unfortunately seem to be unreliable in my experience.

/Marcus


Surely the Ciepielow: i have a book in my home referring to it, and I have seen that event mentioned many times.

About the other crimes mentioned on the web site, i will ask the webmaster for the info.

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Post by szopen » 08 Jun 2004 16:37

Joachim Chan wrote:Hi Szopen, i know that you're a very unbiased author on the matter on war crimes committed in poland, but the above allegation stated seems a bit far fetch without proof, don't you think?


Thanks for compliments, but i am not unbiased: i just admit the crimes whether they were done by Poles (as in our discussion about Bydgoszcz events) or by Germans.

This is the first time i heard about Wehrmacht troops ordered Polish POWs to lie down and the tanks drove over them squashing their bodies like bugs in WW2..


Frankly, me too. But from the list which i translated from the page, many other events i saw described elsewhere.

One of the authors concludes, that Polish PoWs have low chances of survival if caught alone. Larger groups were usually treated well; and PoWs transported to PoW camps in Germany were then treated also well.

But when Polish soldier surrendered alone, and German unit was to busy chasing withdrawing Polish units, then his chances for getting to PoW camp were much lower (Which, BTW, I believe was not restricted to September campaign but can be said about situation of all soldiers surrendering to any armies in WWII).

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Post by tonyh » 08 Jun 2004 16:41

For god's sake Szopen. You're posting these alledged warcrimes, of which there are plenty from all sides in WWII, as well as plenty of fanciful rubbish from all sides too, without a single reliable siurce and reference.

And you just expect people to roll over and believe them?

Don't you think you are asking a bit much?

And as for this....."I wonder whether you consider gas chambers also nonsense, 'cause if so, i would know what kind of person you are. "

I won't even dignify that kind of shite with a response.

So until you can back up your claims with proper unbiased sources in both your allegations against the Luftwaffe in the previous thread and your allegations against the Wehrmacht in this one, then you have no argument at all. Just more unsubstantiated attrocity stories that you so desparately wish to believe because you have an axe to grind.

Tony

szopen
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Post by szopen » 08 Jun 2004 17:07

tonyh wrote:So until you can back up your claims with proper unbiased sources in both your allegations against the Luftwaffe in the previous thread and your allegations against the Wehrmacht in this one, then you have no argument at all. Just more unsubstantiated attrocity stories that you so desparately wish to believe because you have an axe to grind.

Tony


For God Sake!!!!!

In Luftwaffe thread, i have provided two official documents from Polish official diplomatic corps (excerpts from Polskie Siły Zbrojne w Drugiej Wojnie Światowej, t. l, cz. 3, Londyn 1959, s. 7, and Jan Szembek, Diary Spetember-December 1939, Warsaw 1989, page 47-49). I have provided links not only to websites made by amateurs, but to official state sponsored sites, like POLISH GOVERNMENT INSTITUTION IPN, Official page of City of Wielun (referate from historian conference in Wielun), and the link to GERMAN NEWSPAPER die Zeit (I could made up story, but i think that German journalist checked some sources before printing article, isn't it???).


Your answer is that this everything is b*t, the witnesses should not be believed. Frankly, i don't know what should i bring to convince you that things, which are obvious for everyone living thought WWII in Poland, happened.

The webmaster of the site which i used gave large bibligraphy, but he gives one large list for all site, which deals with quite many topics. That's why i've sent him a question for specific bibliographic entry.

Just try to understand me. It's like asking me to prove that Americans have bombed Nagasaki. I know it happened, i could provide you with plethora of links, but i have no single book in my bookcase which I could quote. SO, you would say that Nagasaki was not bombed, since i haev provided only www links.



Some of the cases which are investiageted right now by IPN: if you don't consider IPN reliable source, then i see no point i further discussion with you (http://www.ipn.gov.pl/index_eng.html). I choose only 1939 cases and only done by Wehrmacht.

Investigation in cases of murdering of Polish PoWs, Jews and Polish civiliand in 1939-145 nearby Piaseczno by German military and police units.

http://www.ipn.gov.pl/sled_warszawa_25.html

http://www.ipn.gov.pl/sled_katowice_4.html

The investigation done by Polish procurators form IPN identified that the crime (burning alive of civlians in Parzymieki) was done by soldiers from
panzer division commanded by gen. Otto Knobelsdorf...


And many others:
The investigation in case of crimes done by Wehrmacht and Freikorps, that is mass shooting of Silesian insurgents, scouts and Polish patriots on Katowice region after the September 1st...
Śledztwo w sprawie zbrodni dokonanych przez Wehrmacht i Freikorps, polegających na masowym rozstrzeliwaniu powstańców śląskich, harcerzy i patriotów polskich na terenie Katowic po dniu 1 września 1939 r.,
tj. o przestępstwo z art. 1 pkt 1 dekretu z dnia 31.08.1944 r. o wymiarze kary dla faszystowsko-hitlerowskich zbrodniarzy winnych zabójstw i znęcania się nad ludnością cywilną i jeńcami oraz dla zdrajców Narodu Polskiego i art. 123 § 1 i 2 kk w zw. z art. 11 § 2 kk (S 56/03/Zn)


Investigation in case of shooting in September 1st in Zajaczki St. Malecki, Franciszek Wieczorek and St. Wieczorek by German soldiers ...

Śledztwo w sprawie zastrzelenia w dniu 01 września 1939 r. w Zajączkach gm. Krzepice przez żołnierzy niemieckich Stanisława Małeckiego, Franciszka Wieczorka
i Stanisława Wieczorka.
W sprawie tej uzyskano już informacje z Zentrale Stelle der Landesjustizverwaltungen w Ludwigsburgu na temat jednostki wojskowej działających w rejonie Krzepic w dniu 01.09.1939 r. oraz kopie zachowanych dokumentów tej jednostki z tego okresu, natomiast oczekuje się na uzupełniającą odpowiedź co do składu osobowego oddziałów.


Investiagation ended:
In shootin by German soldier Polish citizens in 4.09. 1939 in forests near Janow Czestochowski. Ended because perpetrators could not be identified
Śledztwo w sprawie rozstrzelania przez żołnierzy niemieckich w okolicach Janowa Częstochowskiego polskich obywateli w dniu 4.09.1939 r. W dniu 5.10.2001 r. śledztwo umorzono wobec na zas. art. 322 1 kpk wobec niewykrycia sprawców przestępstwa.



The prepared investigation: on case of burnign alive 18 Jews and 54-68 Poles by soldiers of Wehrmacht in 1939 in nearby Lublin
http://www.ipn.gov.pl/sled_lublin_18.html
Last edited by szopen on 08 Jun 2004 17:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by tonyh » 08 Jun 2004 17:26

Trying to convince people that the Germans used their panzers to roll over some Polish POW's in 1939, is MOST DEFINITELY NOT like asking you to prove that the US dropped the A bomb on Nagasaki at all.

For the latter, there are Thousands of people involved, not mention the hundreds of thousands of Japanese dead, thousands of pages of documentation regarding the subject, both contempory and post-event including targeting instructions and crew notes of the bomber aircraft involved, photographs of said event from both sides and a decades long legacy of cancers and other diseases that the survivors of both Hiroshima and Nagasaki have had to suffer.

For your allegations, we have have a couple of "eyewitness" stories from one side and old maidish nonsense about the "evil" German's being "unchivalrous".

Thats no competition at all.

Tony

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Post by Panzermahn » 08 Jun 2004 17:34

Hi Tonyh,

To be fair to szopen, we should give him chance to produce evidence that the Wehrmacht panzers rolled over the bodies of captured Polish POWs before judging him....okay? Because this is the first time i heard such things of all the war crimes attributed to the Germans in WW2 and i'm very interested to know Szopen's source..

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Post by szopen » 08 Jun 2004 17:49

See the investigation directed now by IPN. I hope that you are NOT denying the fact of shooting of Polish PoWs by some Wehrmacht units.

I am not implying that WHOLE Wehrmacht behaved barbarically. I am reacting to the assumption, that crimes were done bySS and gestapo, crimes done by Wehrmacth started in 1941 (the title of famous exhibition was "crimes of Wehrmacht 1941-1945).

Note that in any case there couldn't be thousands of testimonies for the event - in best case there would be few testimonies and probably no documents besides few witnes's testimonies, because of the very nature of the event. Doubt that German soldiers would do any documentation or that they would boast with the crime; so it's inevitable that any docuemnts will be _few_ eyewitnesses testimonies.

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