Information about Pre-planned Soviet Mass Rape's in Berlin

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
User avatar
wildboar
Member
Posts: 210
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 12:15
Location: India

Information about Pre-planned Soviet Mass Rape's in Berlin

Post by wildboar » 30 Jul 2002 11:03

Cornelius Ryan found little quantitative data about the rapes that occurred, but the interviews included the following information:

The rapes began as areas of the city were overrun by the Russian troops and continued for a period of approxiametly four weeks;
Women of all ages were assaulted;
Many women were gang raped;
Many were raped again and again on succesive days for weeks;
Medical experts estimated the total number of rapes at between 20,000 and 100,000;
The most accurate measure was the increase in the suicide rate for which authorities continued to maintain the records even through the battle. "In the Pankow district alone, 215 suicides were recorded within three weeks, most of them women."
[Note: Berlin was composed of twenty districts in 1945]

Source-
http://www.systems.org/HTML/signals/volume2/v_2-i_4/war-rape.htm

Now the Million Dollar question is will russia ever seek apology for these act and prosecute those war criminal who carried out these pre-planned atrocity on german civilian's

Ovidius
Member
Posts: 1414
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 19:04
Location: Romania

Re: Information about Pre-planned Soviet Mass Rape's in Berl

Post by Ovidius » 30 Jul 2002 11:18

wildboar wrote:Now the Million Dollar question is will russia ever seek apology for these act and prosecute those war criminal who carried out these pre-planned atrocity on german civilian's


I suggest a 2-Million-Dollar question:

Can our dear friend Roberto think out of his box filled with "monstrous Einsatzgruppen who killed women and children and so were worse than NKVD/OGPU" and think at the possibility of those rapes/murders/tortures being devised to spread terror, which is a known Communist practice? :mrgreen:

~Ovidius

User avatar
wildboar
Member
Posts: 210
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 12:15
Location: India

Atrocities on german civilians were work of NVKD

Post by wildboar » 30 Jul 2002 11:37

Ovidus wrote

of those rapes/murders/tortures being devised to spread terror, which is a known Communist practice?


Yes here i agree with you that indeed they are standard communist practice to spread terror.

I have no doubt that all those atrocities were idea of Mr.Beria and it was NVKD which ensured its organisation through red army and all officer's of red army turned a blind eye all these things

Ovidius
Member
Posts: 1414
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 19:04
Location: Romania

Re: Atrocities on german civilians were work of NVKD

Post by Ovidius » 30 Jul 2002 11:58

wildboar wrote:I have no doubt that all those atrocities were idea of Mr.Beria and it was NVKD which ensured its organisation through red army and all officer's of red army turned a blind eye all these things


Beria was not a superman who could plan "everything" in detail directly, and these practices pre-dated him, stemming from the 1919-1922 Russian Civil War.

~Ovidius

Luca
Member
Posts: 916
Joined: 21 Jul 2002 11:58
Location: Italia

Post by Luca » 30 Jul 2002 12:49

I vent sources,only bad memeory, but same years ago i look a tv program concern these facts.
During the invasion of Germany was estimated 1 millions violated womans.
The great part no was documentated cause the inutility of the denunciation and the shame.
Or maybe was 1 million documentated and 3 millions estimated.
I no remember.
Sorry.
Luca

Ovidius
Member
Posts: 1414
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 19:04
Location: Romania

Post by Ovidius » 30 Jul 2002 13:45

If our dearest friend Roberto jumps (again) with his theory of the "savages that ran amok before the NKVD police troops stopped them for good", I'm going to ask him the same question I've asked so many times before, and he played deaf:

How does he explain the huge difference between the behavior of Soviet troops in other (Eastern) European countries, where they committed far less acts of violence(and seldomly rape/murder, mostly theft/plundering) and their behavior in Germany?

~Ovidius

PS I'm eager to read an answer 8O

User avatar
Roberto
Member
Posts: 4505
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 15:35
Location: Lisbon, Portugal

Re: Information about Pre-planned Soviet Mass Rape's in Berl

Post by Roberto » 30 Jul 2002 19:33

Ovidius wrote:
wildboar wrote:Now the Million Dollar question is will russia ever seek apology for these act and prosecute those war criminal who carried out these pre-planned atrocity on german civilian's


Again the "pre-planned" baloney, Mr. Wildboar?

Have you found any evidence to the plan in the meantime?

Ovidius wrote:I suggest a 2-Million-Dollar question:

Can our dear friend Roberto think out of his box filled with "monstrous Einsatzgruppen who killed women and children and so were worse than NKVD/OGPU"


A question worth three million would be: Where did I ever write that the Einsatzgruppen killers were worse than the NKVD/OGPU henchmen?

I have only pointed out on repeated occasions that they had an emotionally tougher job because many if not most of their victims were women and children, IIRC.

Ovidius wrote:and think at the possibility of those rapes/murders/tortures being devised to spread terror, which is a known Communist practice?


With all due respect for such Communist practices, I consider the level of criminal energy in the organized and systematic extermination of entire populations by whatever means, practiced by both Communists and Nazis, to be higher.

As to the rapes/murders/tortures perpetrated by Soviet soldiers on German soil being "devised to spread terror", that goes in the direction of Wildboar's allegations of a "pre-planned" crime for which he has so far offered no evidence.

~Ovidius

Ovidius
Member
Posts: 1414
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 19:04
Location: Romania

Re: Information about Pre-planned Soviet Mass Rape's in Berl

Post by Ovidius » 30 Jul 2002 20:11

Roberto wrote:I have only pointed out on repeated occasions that they had an emotionally tougher job because many if not most of their victims were women and children, IIRC.


That was enough.

Roberto wrote:As to the rapes/murders/tortures perpetrated by Soviet soldiers on German soil being "devised to spread terror", that goes in the direction of Wildboar's allegations of a "pre-planned" crime for which he has so far offered no evidence.


1. You've failed (as usual) to answer my question: why only or mostly in Germany and far less in Romania/Hungary/Czechoslovakia etc?

2. The Soviets had used such methods of spreading terror since the Russian Civil War, and in late 1930s they had planned a partisan network sponsored by the state to "fight" against the potential enemies. Disbanded by Stalin's orders, the network had been rebuilt during war years, under the guise of the Soviet state and not by itself, proved by the fact that partisan leaders were treated after the war as heroes of the Soviet combat forces and awarded the Partisan Medal.

The same Soviets did apply in their own country the "scorched earth" policy, and sent terrorists(like the "heroine" Zoya Kosmodemianskaya) to spread panic behind enemy lines. Unlike the British SAS, the German Skorzeny commandos or Brandenburgs etc, composed of professional soldiers, the Soviet ones were plain terrorists, whose actions were aimed to spread panic and arouse the rage of the Germans, because any German reprisal meant hatred against the Germans from the local population, which was to be more inclined to consider Stalin the "lesser evil" by comparison :mrgreen:

The same Soviets did use the Nuisance Bombers, if ever heard of them:

The Night Witches


In 1942 the Soviet Union formed three regiments of women combat pilots. The 586th Fighter (IAP) Regiment (Yak-1s and later Yak-7Bs), the 587th Day Bomber Regiment (Petylakov PE-2s) and the 588th Night Bomber Regiment (Polikarpov Po-2s). The 'Night Witches' were the women of the 588th Night Bomber Regiment. All of the mechanics and ordnance loaders of this regiment, as in the 586th Fighter (IAP) and the 587th DayBomber Regiment, were also women.


Trained for six months at the town of Engels on the River Volga near Stalingrad, they flew obsolete Polikarpov Po-2 biplanes, that were otherwise used as trainers. Generally unarmed they carried a variety of droppable ordnance consisting of bombs/grenades (even Molotov Cocktails) thrown from the aircraft by the observer, and on later aircraft, underwing racks for up to 264 lbs (120 kg) of bombs or four RS-82 rockets. Like most Night Bomber Regiments, they were nuisance raiders with targets usually of little strategic importance, but the psychological effect of the terror raids had a major effect on the Germans who soon gave the women pilots the nickname of Nachthexen or Night Witches, presumably because of the fact that they were women and flew wooden aircraft at night.


Because of the aircraft's wooden frame and fabric covering contruction combined with the low heat signature of the small 100 hp (74.6 kW) engine, and flying very low to the ground, they were difficult (if not impossible) for radar equipped night fighters to detect them. Flying close to the target and then cutting their engines and gliding in to attack, also added to thier terrifying effect.


Harassment night bombing was very difficult to do, considering the low performance of the Po-2 biplanes was even less than most World War I fighters. Very slow, but it was also very maneuverable. When a German fighter tried to intercept it, the Russian plane could turn violently and nimbly at a speed much less than the pursuing fighters stalling speed, requiring that the German make a wide circle to come in for another pass. Then he was again met with the same evasive tactic, time after time, hoping that in frustration he would break off the attack altogether.


The Germans later devised a defence to their attacks, that the Russians later called a 'Flak Circus' wherein searchlights and flak guns encircled probable targets. The 'Night Witches' adopted a dangerous tactic in which, flying in formations of three aircraft, the first two aircraft would fly into the target drawing the searchlights and flak onto themselves and away from the third aircraft that would attack the target. After a successful attack they would regroup and switch places with each aircraft taking its turn as the bait.


The Soviet women bomber pilots earned in total 23 Hero of the Soviet Union medals and dozens of Orders of the Red Banner. Altogether, the Po-2 pilots flew more than 24,000 sorties and dropped 23,000 tons of bombs earning their place in history.


Source: http://www.kotfsc.com/aircraft/po2.htm

Emphases are mine.

Airplanes and pilots aimed not to destroy bunkers, tanks, depots, trenches, factories, cities etc, which was practically impossible with hand grenades, Molotov Cocktails or small bombs, but to spread panic and terror.

It fits in the same line. Panic, fear, terror, these are typical elements of the guerrilla warfare. Wherever Communist guerillas had ever fought, these elements were present throughout the years. It's like a signature for them. It fits in the same line with the "Communist revolution" and other bullshit like this.

It's not necesary to "pass instructions and orders" to the Soviet soldiers to rape/kill/torture. Just tell them what Ehrenburg did, then let them know they won't be punished. It happened in plenty of places, not only the German-Soviet conflict(Southeast Asia comes to mind).

Obviously, I do not expect our friend Roberto, who had previously tried to convince us that Hitler was going to dumb his own people by giving them radios able to receive a single station(practically impossible from a technical point of view), to do the same reasoning :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

~Ovidius

User avatar
Roberto
Member
Posts: 4505
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 15:35
Location: Lisbon, Portugal

Post by Roberto » 30 Jul 2002 20:23

Ovidius wrote:If our dearest friend Roberto jumps (again) with his theory of the "savages that ran amok before the NKVD police troops stopped them for good", I'm going to ask him the same question I've asked so many times before, and he played deaf:

How does he explain the huge difference between the behavior of Soviet troops in other (Eastern) European countries, where they committed far less acts of violence(and seldomly rape/murder, mostly theft/plundering) and their behavior in Germany?

~Ovidius

PS I'm eager to read an answer 8O


Easy, my dear Ovi. Germany was the accursed enemy that had brought death and devastation to the Soviet Union, for which reason the savages

i) were filled with murderous hatred towards everything German, additionally fueled by Ehrenburg's hate propaganda aimed at bolstering their fighting spirit;

ii) were allowed to ran amok much longer and much more wildly before the military police stepped in.

Even in Germany there were differentiations, by the way. In the area of Leipzig the Soviet command took care to send in more disciplined troops because this was old Communist territory, according to Jürgen Thorwald's
Das Ende an der Elbe.

By the way, how many times have I been asked this question and "played deaf" (which would be a very untypical reaction of mine)? Show me.

Ovidius
Member
Posts: 1414
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 19:04
Location: Romania

Post by Ovidius » 30 Jul 2002 20:31

Roberto wrote:Germany was the accursed enemy that had brought death and devastation to the Soviet Union, for which reason the savages

i) were filled with murderous hatred towards everything German, additionally fueled by Ehrenburg's hate propaganda aimed at bolstering their fighting spirit;

ii) were allowed to ran amok much longer and much more wildly before the military police stepped in.

Even in Germany there were differentiations, by the way. In the area of Leipzig the Soviet command took care to send in more disciplined troops because this was old Communist territory, according to Jürgen Thorwald's
Das Ende an der Elbe.


And Romania wasn't a "cursed enemy who had brought death and devastation"? Hungary wasn't? Wasn't it Finland?

Roberto wrote:By the way, how many times have I been asked this question and "played deaf" (which would be a very untypical reaction of mine)? Show me.


Plenty.

~Ovidius

User avatar
Roberto
Member
Posts: 4505
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 15:35
Location: Lisbon, Portugal

Re: Information about Pre-planned Soviet Mass Rape's in Berl

Post by Roberto » 30 Jul 2002 20:52

Message deleted.
Last edited by Roberto on 30 Jul 2002 21:07, edited 1 time in total.

Ovidius
Member
Posts: 1414
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 19:04
Location: Romania

Post by Ovidius » 30 Jul 2002 21:02

Better edit your message, otherwise you've just quoted my entire post for nothing :D

~Ovidius

User avatar
Roberto
Member
Posts: 4505
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 15:35
Location: Lisbon, Portugal

Re: Information about Pre-planned Soviet Mass Rape's in Berl

Post by Roberto » 30 Jul 2002 21:06

Roberto wrote:I have only pointed out on repeated occasions that they had an emotionally tougher job because many if not most of their victims were women and children, IIRC.


Ovidius wrote: That was enough.


Indeed it was – to demonstrate that Ovi obviously likes to misrepresent my statements.

Roberto wrote:As to the rapes/murders/tortures perpetrated by Soviet soldiers on German soil being "devised to spread terror", that goes in the direction of Wildboar's allegations of a "pre-planned" crime for which he has so far offered no evidence.


Ovidius wrote: 1. You've failed (as usual) to answer my question: why only or mostly in Germany and far less in Romania/Hungary/Czechoslovakia etc?


See my last post, chum.

Ovidius wrote: The same Soviets did apply in their own country the "scorched earth" policy, and sent terrorists(like the "heroine" Zoya Kosmodemianskaya) to spread panic behind enemy lines. Unlike the British SAS, the German Skorzeny commandos or Brandenburgs etc, composed of professional soldiers, the Soviet ones were plain terrorists, whose actions were aimed to spread panic and arouse the rage of the Germans, because any German reprisal meant hatred against the Germans from the local population, which was to be more inclined to consider Stalin the "lesser evil" by comparison :mrgreen:


If I remember correctly, the mission of “terrorists” like Zoya was to deprive the German troops of shelter in wintertime according to Stalin’s order no. 0428 of 17 November 1941. Hatred of the German invaders hardly needed to be aroused among the Soviet population once it had become familiar with Nazi policies of starvation and deportation and their wildly disproportionate overreaction to the slightest real or alleged provocation – like the shooting of 400 men of Kiev in retaliation for the damaging of some radio equipment on 29.11.1941.

Ovidius wrote: The same Soviets did use the Nuisance Bombers, if ever heard of them:

The Night Witches


In 1942 the Soviet Union formed three regiments of women combat pilots. The 586th Fighter (IAP) Regiment (Yak-1s and later Yak-7Bs), the 587th Day Bomber Regiment (Petylakov PE-2s) and the 588th Night Bomber Regiment (Polikarpov Po-2s). The 'Night Witches' were the women of the 588th Night Bomber Regiment. All of the mechanics and ordnance loaders of this regiment, as in the 586th Fighter (IAP) and the 587th DayBomber Regiment, were also women.


Trained for six months at the town of Engels on the River Volga near Stalingrad, they flew obsolete Polikarpov Po-2 biplanes, that were otherwise used as trainers. Generally unarmed they carried a variety of droppable ordnance consisting of bombs/grenades (even Molotov Cocktails) thrown from the aircraft by the observer, and on later aircraft, underwing racks for up to 264 lbs (120 kg) of bombs or four RS-82 rockets. Like most Night Bomber Regiments, they were nuisance raiders with targets usually of little strategic importance, but the psychological effect of the terror raids had a major effect on the Germans who soon gave the women pilots the nickname of Nachthexen or Night Witches, presumably because of the fact that they were women and flew wooden aircraft at night.


Because of the aircraft's wooden frame and fabric covering contruction combined with the low heat signature of the small 100 hp (74.6 kW) engine, and flying very low to the ground, they were difficult (if not impossible) for radar equipped night fighters to detect them. Flying close to the target and then cutting their engines and gliding in to attack, also added to thier terrifying effect.


Harassment night bombing was very difficult to do, considering the low performance of the Po-2 biplanes was even less than most World War I fighters. Very slow, but it was also very maneuverable. When a German fighter tried to intercept it, the Russian plane could turn violently and nimbly at a speed much less than the pursuing fighters stalling speed, requiring that the German make a wide circle to come in for another pass. Then he was again met with the same evasive tactic, time after time, hoping that in frustration he would break off the attack altogether.


The Germans later devised a defence to their attacks, that the Russians later called a 'Flak Circus' wherein searchlights and flak guns encircled probable targets. The 'Night Witches' adopted a dangerous tactic in which, flying in formations of three aircraft, the first two aircraft would fly into the target drawing the searchlights and flak onto themselves and away from the third aircraft that would attack the target. After a successful attack they would regroup and switch places with each aircraft taking its turn as the bait.


The Soviet women bomber pilots earned in total 23 Hero of the Soviet Union medals and dozens of Orders of the Red Banner. Altogether, the Po-2 pilots flew more than 24,000 sorties and dropped 23,000 tons of bombs earning their place in history.


Source: http://www.kotfsc.com/aircraft/po2.htm

Emphases are mine.

Airplanes and pilots aimed not to destroy bunkers, tanks, depots, trenches, factories, cities etc, which was practically impossible with hand grenades, Molotov Cocktails or small bombs, but to spread panic and terror.


Harassment bombing of enemy troops – how frightfully shocking. I’d call it a legitimate military tactic.

Ovidius wrote: It fits in the same line. Panic, fear, terror, these are typical elements of the guerrilla warfare. Wherever Communist guerillas had ever fought, these elements were present throughout the years. It's like a signature for them. It fits in the same line with the "Communist revolution" and other bullshit like this.


A defensible assertion, which I however wouldn’t limit to Communist guerrillas.

Ovidius wrote:It's not necesary to "pass instructions and orders" to the Soviet soldiers to rape/kill/torture. Just tell them what Ehrenburg did, then let them know they won't be punished.


Couldn’t it be that the hatred cultivated by the Germans during three years of occupation of Soviet territories was also a very important if not the most important factor?

Ovidius wrote:It happened in plenty of places, not only the German-Soviet conflict(Southeast Asia comes to mind).


Why, were there Soviet troops in Southeast Asia?

Ovidius wrote:Obviously, I do not expect our friend Roberto, who had previously tried to convince us that Hitler was going to dumb his own people by giving them radios able to receive a single station(practically impossible from a technical point of view), to do the same reasoning :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


Why do I get the feeling that poor Ovi won’t gain much sympathy with the above junk?

I may not know much about radios, but I know enough of both Ovi’s evil Communists and his belover National Socialists to conclude that they are hewn of the same oak, that I want none of either and that Ovi’s persistent attempts to make me into a Communist sympathizer are rather laughable showpieces of intellectual dishonesty.

I also know enough of Nazi propaganda to conclude that the Volksempfänger was an important element of it, by the the way. Where all broadcasting stations are controlled by the RMVP and feature Wagner and Goebbels, it hardly matters how many channels of shit you can choose from.

User avatar
Roberto
Member
Posts: 4505
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 15:35
Location: Lisbon, Portugal

Post by Roberto » 30 Jul 2002 21:16

Ovidius wrote:
Roberto wrote:Germany was the accursed enemy that had brought death and devastation to the Soviet Union, for which reason the savages

i) were filled with murderous hatred towards everything German, additionally fueled by Ehrenburg's hate propaganda aimed at bolstering their fighting spirit;

ii) were allowed to ran amok much longer and much more wildly before the military police stepped in.

Even in Germany there were differentiations, by the way. In the area of Leipzig the Soviet command took care to send in more disciplined troops because this was old Communist territory, according to Jürgen Thorwald's
Das Ende an der Elbe.


Ovidius wrote:And Romania wasn't a "cursed enemy who had brought death and devastation"? Hungary wasn't? Wasn't it Finland?


Hardly to an extent remotely comparable to Germany. Hungary had one army in Russia that was obliterated during the Stalingrad offensive, IIRC. Finland got itself off the hook by a separate peace. Romania even switched sides in 1944 and fought on with the Soviets.

Roberto wrote:By the way, how many times have I been asked this question and "played deaf" (which would be a very untypical reaction of mine)? Show me.


Ovidius wrote:Plenty.


The request being "Show me", that is hardly an answer.

Ovidius
Member
Posts: 1414
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 19:04
Location: Romania

Re: Information about Pre-planned Soviet Mass Rape's in Berl

Post by Ovidius » 30 Jul 2002 21:17

Roberto wrote:
Ovidius wrote: It fits in the same line. Panic, fear, terror, these are typical elements of the guerrilla warfare. Wherever Communist guerillas had ever fought, these elements were present throughout the years. It's like a signature for them. It fits in the same line with the "Communist revolution" and other bullshit like this.


A defensible assertion, which I however wouldn’t limit to Communist guerrillas.


Not only - also to Communist states themselves, as we know :mrgreen:

Roberto wrote:
Ovidius wrote:It happened in plenty of places, not only the German-Soviet conflict(Southeast Asia comes to mind).


Why, were there Soviet troops in Southeast Asia?


No, but there were Communists. The nationality doesn't matter, a Communist is always a Communist, just like the wolf remains forever a wolf, even dressed in a sheepskin :mrgreen:

Roberto wrote:I also know enough of Nazi propaganda to conclude that the Volksempfänger was an important element of it, by the the way. Where all broadcasting stations are controlled by the RMVP and feature Wagner and Goebbels, it hardly matters how many channels of shit you can choose from.


There was always the BBC on hand, you know... :mrgreen:

~Ovidius

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”