Number of Jews living in countries occupied by Nazis

Toivo · Post by **Toivo** » 17 Jun 2004 07:01

Hi,

Maybe there is such information in some topic which I haven't noticed, my apologizes then.

But could anyone link to list of numbers of jewish communities who lived in countried occupied by Nazi germany. I would guess USSR would be different story. Even better if someone got statistics on how many jews left their countries before Nazis came, how many got killed and how many survived.
Do such statistics exist?

Thank you

Karl · Post by **Karl** » 17 Jun 2004 07:31

According to Wansee Conference:

Approximately 11 million Jews will be involved in the final solution of the European Jewish question, distributed as follows among the individual countries:

Country Number

A. Germany proper 131,800
Austria 43,700
Eastern territories 420,000
General Government 2,284,000
Bialystok 400,000
Protectorate Bohemia and Moravia 74,200
Estonia - free of Jews -
Latvia 3,500
Lithuania 34,000
Belgium 43,000
Denmark 5,600
France / occupied territory 165,000
unoccupied territory 700,000
Greece 69,600
Netherlands 160,800
Norway 1,300

B. Bulgaria 48,000
England 330,000
Finland 2,300
Ireland 4,000
Italy including Sardinia 58,000
Albania 200
Croatia 40,000
Portugal 3,000
Rumania including Bessarabia 342,000
Sweden 8,000
Switzerland 18,000
Serbia 10,000
Slovakia 88,000
Spain 6,000
Turkey (European portion) 55,500
Hungary 742,800
USSR 5,000,000
Ukraine 2,994,684
White Russia
excluding Bialystok 446,484

Total over 11,000,000

Limited I know, but a start anyhow.

Mostowka · Post by **Mostowka** » 17 Jun 2004 11:09

Source: http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holoca ... table.html (and Holocaust Denial: A Pocket Guide. Anti-Defamation League, 1997.)

NOTE: Above the table "Solution there should be ´estimated pre-solution population´´

I will dig up some more source on pre-war populations in my book collection.

Sergey Romanov · Post by **Sergey Romanov** » 17 Jun 2004 11:38

This recent thread at RODOH might be helpful:

http://p067.ezboard.com/frodohforumfrm1 ... =433.topic

Toivo · Post by **Toivo** » 17 Jun 2004 12:36

Thank you both for your figures and this link Sergey.

Now I had never been interested in details but I did some research myself, took a peek in older articles for exsample on homepage of estonian jewish comunity (iisrael.ee)

What did I find?

Iisrael.ee - 1000 estonian jewish citizens were killed, most evacuated to Russia when germans came. 3500 jews lived in Estonia 1940. offically.
Out of 7500 danish jews 7000 evacuated to Sweden.
Out of 300000 french jews 210000 were saved.
Out of 90000 Belgium jews 50000 stayed alive.

By Wansee conference in Baltic states lived about 42000 jews if we add 4000 jews who lived in Estonia. Other figures stretch jewish citizen numbers up to 264000.

Here is some "variant" of figures where first number marks jews who died and other population before 1939. :

• Poolas 2 800 000 (enne 1939. aastat elas 3 330 000)
• NSV Liidus (koos okupeeritud aladega) 1 720 000 (2 350 000)
• Rumeenias 425 000 (850 000)
• Tshehhoslovakkias 260 000 (315 000)
• Ungaris 200 000 (404 000)
• Leedus 143 000 (168 000)
• Saksamaal 141 500 (566 000)
• Lätis 71 500 (92 000)
• Eestis 2000 (4434)
• Soomes 7 (2300)

Now I could continue for pages but I'm already very puzzled and suprised.
All figures are very roughly estimated. At jewish community homepage there's claim 1000 estonian jewish citizens died, but elsewhere it's twice as big. Basiclly I sense great confusion with figures so my question is:

Are there any presice figures which are based on numbers of jews who lived in these countries mentioned, who moved during or pre war period, who survived and who were killed? Exact numbers of jewish citizens of every country killed and jews who died when deported to other occupied countries?

Were all archives with documented figures on demographic situation destroyed in all mentioned countries that we got figures like 4000-10000?

As now I don't understand anything, it's all big mish-mash. I refuse to believe that after 60 years there still ain't very exact numbers.

Regards

Toivo · Post by **Toivo** » 17 Jun 2004 12:52

From jewish sources to which I would like to hear oppinions and explanation since I don't understand how can estimated numbers be so different, in thousands and tens thousands:

http://www.ahavat-israel.com/ahavat/protest/shoa.asp

The Nazis had decided to slaughter the one million Jews of Hungary. They promised Kastner, then a Jewish leader in Hungary, that for his silence about their plan, he could choose 600 Jews who would be allowed to escape to Switzerland.

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holoca ... tocol.html

The influence of the Jews in all walks of life in the USSR is well known. Approximately five million Jews live in the European part of the USSR, in the Asian part scarcely 1/4 million.

From same page:

Below are figures for the number of Jews murdered in each country that came under German domination. They are estimates, as are all figures relating to Holocaust victims. The numbers given here for Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Romania are based on their territorial borders before the 1938 Munich agreement. The total number of six million Jews murdered during the Holocaust, which emerged from the Nuremberg trials, is also an estimate. Numbers have ranged between five and seven million killed.

Africa
526

Albania
200

Austria
65,000

Belgium
24,387

Czechoslovakia
277,000

Denmark
77

Estonia
4,000

France
83,000

Germany
160,000

Greece
71,301

Hungary
305,000

Italy
8,000

Latvia
85,000

Lithuania
135,000

Luxembourg
700

Netherlands
106,000

Norway
728

Poland
3,001,000

Romania
364,632

Soviet Union
1,500,000

Yugoslavia
67,122

Regards

Sergey Romanov · Post by **Sergey Romanov** » 17 Jun 2004 13:12

1) The words "Jew", "Jews", "Jewish" are capitalized.
2) Just because you have found some divergent data on several web pages doesn't mean that there exist different proper estimates. For the purpose of the scholarly analysis unsourced numbers should be treated with suspicion, if not rejected outright. So, if you wish to make any point, please, compare _scholarly_ sources, which explain the methodology of estimates or give official documents as their sources.

The quotation you have presented is a good example of a source which should not be used when we're talking about precise figures.

http://www.holocaustcenter.org/Holocaus ... ryof.shtml

No source is given for the numbers. Just because the article is on the Museum site doesn't guarantee its accuracy. Probably, it was prepared by an amateur who didn't care much about such details.

Karl · Post by **Karl** » 17 Jun 2004 13:55

What makes a Jew?

Toivo · Post by **Toivo** » 17 Jun 2004 13:56

I'm not trying to make a point here. I'm asking where are those "scholarly sources"? Could you please provide few links to those as you seem to know where they are located in internet or have seen those, all I have found is estimations that numbers have ranged between five and seven million killed. Is it six million Jews then, or maybe seven or maybe five?

There ain't name of source provided from where those figures in estonian article come from (it appeared in main newspaper few years ago in article "Israel remembers victims of Holocaust").

If anyone thinks I'm trying to make a point here which sets Holocaust under doubt, something revisionistic, you've got it wrong. I'm trying to find out wether there are YET any good figures which are worldwide agreed.

Regards

Toivo · Post by **Toivo** » 17 Jun 2004 14:01

Take a look at recent thread about crimes against humanity in Estonia. Commission found that during Nazi occupation close to 1000 Jews were killed. It's 3-4 times less than in official figures or am I wrong?

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=52004

Sergey Romanov · Post by **Sergey Romanov** » 17 Jun 2004 14:08

> I'm asking where are those "scholarly sources"? Could you please provide few links to those as you seem to know where they are located in internet

Probably, Raul Hilberg's "The Destruction of European Jewry" is what you need. It's not available online, of course.

As for Estonian Jews... Well, here's my speculation. First of all, let's not forget that Jews were brought to Estonia to work in labor camps, and many died. So there's a difference between the number of murdered Estonian Jews (probably about 1000), and the number of the Jews murdered in Estonia (which is certainly higher).

Some further info:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/questi ... onia.shtml

Sergey Romanov · Post by **Sergey Romanov** » 17 Jun 2004 14:11

> It's 3-4 times less than in official figures or am I wrong?

There are no such things as "official figures" in history.

Karl · Post by **Karl** » 17 Jun 2004 14:27

all I have found is estimations that numbers have ranged between five and seven million killed. Is it six million Jews then, or maybe seven or maybe five?

No matter what charts you try to analyze and compare, it is impossible to come up with the correct answer.

Sorry about that…

Sergey Romanov · Post by **Sergey Romanov** » 17 Jun 2004 14:44

> it is impossible to come up with the correct answer

With the _exact_ number, that is.
7 million is surely far-fetched. Personally, I find Hilberg's 5.1 million figure the most probable. Anyway, when serious historians write about the Holocaust, they usually say "5-6 million".

Toivo · Post by **Toivo** » 17 Jun 2004 14:45

Probably, Raul Hilberg's "The Destruction of European Jewry" is what you need. It's not available online, of course.

So no decent sources online, too bad. Guess I can google some more but doubt there's much useful. All Jewish online databases require regristration by the way, wonder if it's worth time, any documents available there?

Sergey - yes you're right, sorry I ment to say "1000 Estonian Jewish citizens". 19000-20000 non-citizen Jews were killed in Estonia is what I read out.

I doubt we can' find out real figures for every country if archives weren't destroyed. Atleast there should be exact figures for smaller countries like Norway, Denmark, Finland, each of three Baltic states etc?
I can understand if estimated victims vary for several thousands in big countries but in small countries it should be pretty clear. It's not history of ancient Greece where I can't ask for official figures, right?

Regards