Aerial Photos of Auschwitz-Birkenau

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
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Lucius Felix Silla
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Post by Lucius Felix Silla » 29 Jun 2004 10:17

Dear Mr. David Thompson,

You wrote:
David Thompson wrote:LFS -- You are confusing two different documents. The first is a memo from Himmler to Kaltenbrunner and perhaps Pohl, in Oct 1944. The second is a telegram to Becher, in Nov 1944.

Oct 1944

Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler met secretly near Vienna with Dr. Jean-Marie Musy, President of the Swiss Altbund, to discuss the fate of the remaining Jews held in Nazi concentration and death camps. At the meeting, Himmler declared that he was ready to release all Jews held in German custody and allow them to travel to Switzerland. Following the meeting, Himmler dictated a memorandum to SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Ernst Kaltenbrunner, the chief of the RSHA, Sipo and SD, to spare the lives of all Jews being held in concentration camps. According to SS-Standartenfuehrer Kurt Becher, the message read: "I forbid any extermination of Jews and order that on the contrary care should be given to weak and sick persons." (Hoehne 642)

Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler sent an order to SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Oswald Pohl, head of the SS Economic Administration of the concentration camps, and to SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Ernst Kaltenbrunner, head of the Reich Central Security Office, ordering them to stop killing the Jews. (Holo Levin 700)

Nov 1944

Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler telegraphed Kurt Becher: "The crematoria at Auschwitz are to be dismantled. The Jews working in the Reich are to get normal eastern workers' rations. In the absence of Jewish hospitals they may be treated with Aryan patients." (Holo Levin 700)
I'm sorry to write this, but You have grossly misrepresented my words and my think. Not surprisingly, You avoided to post my exacts words.

What i have really written:

I have read Hilberg, The destruction...vol. II, p.1080, Torino, 1999 (this is the italian edition of the Holmes & Meier edition, NY, 1985 but reviewed and enlarged by same Hilberg).

Two points:

1) Here the order was dated 25th november 1944.
But elsewhere was dated 26th october 1944. See above and http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holoca ... hbirk.html.

You can explicate this manifest discrepancy?

2) The note give reference to an affidavit of a certain Kurt Becker dated 8 march 1946- See Nur. doc. PS-3762.
So i don't see none document, but only one witness which say that this order exist.


The reference is to a previous post in which one can read: (see Racpisa post):

In terms of the pictures taken December 21, various sources say that Himmler ordered a halt to the gassings at Auschwitz in November 1944.

Quote:
In November Himmler ordered gassings to stop, and a "clean-up" operation was inaugurated to conceal traces of the mass murder.


http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holoca ... hbirk.html

This website states that Himmler ordred the gassings to stop on October 26 and the message reached Auschwitz on November 2. The last gassing at Auschwitz took place on November 28.


Quote:
1944 October 26 Himmler issues orders to destroy the crematoriums at Auschwitz-Birkenau in an attempt to eliminate the evidence of Nazi mass murder.

1944 November 2 Himmler's order of October 26 arrives at Auschwitz: "I forbid any further annihilation of Jews." Upon his further orders, all but one of the crematoriums are dismantled, the burning pits covered up and planted over with grass, and the gas pipes and other equipment shipped to concentration camps in Germany. The single remaining crematorium is for the disposal of those who die of natural causes and the gassing of about 200 surviving members of the Sonderkommando. The final solution is formally over. Yet tens of thousands of Jews will continue to die of brutality and neglect. (Apparatus)

1944 November 28 The last gassings take place at Auschwitz. More than 8,000 have been gassed since the first of November. (Atlas)


http://www.humanitas-international.org/ ... 44tbse.htm


So i don't have confused nothing. The discrepancy is evident and proves that this phantomatic order to stop the extermination of people in Auschwitz is only a fantasy.

To sum up:
Version nr.1 (Atlas):
- Himmler on date 26th october issued an order to stop the killing of the Jews "I forbid any further annihilation of the Jews";
- Auschwitz received this order on date 2th november 1944, but because they weren't unable to read german language or because they thinked that Himmler authority wasn't so important (evindently Himmler was a hilarious men) they don't stop the activity until 28 th November, gassing another 8,000 men. Naturally, because they were completely idiotics, they forget to kill all members of Sonderkommandos (incidentally: this word was never employed in official documentation; were much Sonderkommandos in Auschwitz, but none relying with Krematoria) and simply put into the gas chambers 200 of them. Result: much key eyewitnesses to existence of gas chambers were still alive, not to mention the others 7,000 witnesses liberated by Sovietics in January 1945 and others 60,000 transferred in others various KL's (various survived)!

Version nr.2 (Hilberg)
- Himmler on date 25th november issued an order to stop the killing of the Jews and destroy the Krematoria and any other evidence;
- because the german authority of Auschwitz wasn't particularly intelligent
the partial destruction of Krematoria II and III was realized only on date 20th January 1945 with the Red Army at the gates and with dynamite, not really a clever method to destroy all evidence. They also forget to destroy the Archive of the Zentralbeilatung of Auschwitz (80,000 documents!) so Pressac & co. 45 years after could have found evidence of the most top-secret crime of all times! Same as above for eyewitnesses.

Version nr.3 (Your)
- In an imprecisated date of October 1944 Himmler issued an order "I forbid any extermination of Jews and order that on the contrary care should be given to weak and sick persons."
- As above seen, the Auschwitz commandant laugh for this order and continued to kill people in gas chambers.
- In an imprecisate date of November 1944, Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler telegraphed Kurt Becher: "The crematoria at Auschwitz are to be dismantled. The Jews working in the Reich are to get normal eastern workers' rations. In the absence of Jewish hospitals they may be treated with Aryan patients."
- Obviously the Auschwitz German when have seen this order were a little confused because they weren't able to obey to wishes of Himmler.

Naturally, as i have precisely remarked, of these orders don't exist any written trace or any document wich could have any attinence : only postwar eyewitnesses. And on this, i must note that the dates provides by secondary sources (Levin, Hilberg at cetera) were wrong.

In reality:

1) Kurt Becher, former SS Standartenführer, affirmed that Himmler gave the order of stop the killing of Jews "between mid-September and mid-October 1944" (PS-3762)

2) According to another source, the testimony of Reszö Kastner, Kurt Becher had told him that Himmler on 25 (PS-2605) and at same time on 26 (see "Der Kastner-Bericht über Eichmanns Menschenhandel in Ungarn, Munich, 1961, p. 242) November 1944 had ordered the crematories and the "gas chambers" to be destroyed and to suspend the "extermination" of the Jews.

3) According to other testimony reported in Het doedenboek van Auschwitz (Gravenhage, 1947, p.16), the order came from Berlin on 2 November 1944 (see L.Poliakov, Il nazismo e lo sterminio degli ebrei, Torino 1964, p.275, n.2 tr. it. of Léon Poliakov. Bréviaire de la haine. Le IIIe Reich et les juifs. Paris, 1955).

4) On other hand, at Nuremberg Wisliceny declared that Himmler's order was sent in October 1944 (cfr.IMT, Vol. IV, p. 398.)

To sum up with the words of noted french historian:

Pas plus qu'il n'existe d'ordre écrit en clair d'extermination par les gaz à Auschwitz n'existe d'ordre ècrit ordonnant de les cesser en novembre 1944.

No more than there exists a written order in clear text for extermination by gas at Auschwitz does there exist a written order to stop it in November 1944.

and

Dernière remarque à propos des chambres à gaz: ni aux procès de Nuremberg, ni au cours des diffèrents procès de zone, ni au procès de Höss à Cracovie, d'Eichmann en Israel, ni aux procès de Francfort (accusés d'Auschwitz de "seconde zone") n'a été produit le fameux ordre signé de Himmler, du 22 novembre 1944, sur la fine de l'etermination des Juifs par les gaz, l'ordre de mettre fin à la Solution finale

Last remark on the gas chambers: Neither at the Nuremberg trial, nor in the course of the different zone trials, nor at the trial of Hoss at Cracow, of Eichmann in Israel, nor at the trials of the camp commanders, nor from November 1964 to August 1965 at the Frankfurt trial was there ever produced the famous order signed by Himmler 22 November 1944 ending the extermination of the Jews by gas and putting a finish to the Final Solution.

(see Olga Wormser-Migot, Le Système concentrationnaire nazi (1933-1945, Presses Universitaires de France, 1968, p.13 and p. 544 respectively).

Best Regards

LFS

David Thompson
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Post by David Thompson » 29 Jun 2004 23:36

LFS -- You asked:
Two points:

1) Here the order was dated 25th november 1944.
But elsewhere was dated 26th october 1944. See above and http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holoca ... hbirk.html.
I replied:
You are confusing two different documents.


You then complained:
I'm sorry to write this, but You have grossly misrepresented my words and my think. Not surprisingly, You avoided to post my exacts words.
Since my post didn't quote you or summarize your argument, there's no misrepresentation here at all, gross or trivial. You asked for an explanation, and you got what you asked for -- my opinion on your claimed discrepancy. You were confusing two separate documents.

You then said:
So i don't have confused nothing. The discrepancy is evident and proves that this phantomatic order to stop the extermination of people in Auschwitz is only a fantasy.
The readers can read the posts and judge for themselves whether there is a fantasy here, and who's having it.

PeterBln
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Post by PeterBln » 05 Jul 2004 15:19

Hi Mr Thompson,

One Question: Do you have Aerial views of the countless American and British Genocides, too?

Yours faithfully,
kind Regards from Berlin,

Peter

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Marcus
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Post by Marcus » 05 Jul 2004 15:21

PeterBln,

Stay on topic, thanks. This thread is about Auschwitz-Birkenau, nothing else.

/Marcus

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Sergey Romanov
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Post by Sergey Romanov » 11 Jul 2004 17:09

> 20.8.1944 (recently released)

When this photo was published and where I can take a look?

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