Gas Chambers at Bunker 1, KL Auschwitz

[Lucius Felix Silla]

LFS -- (1) I don't have access to the sources you claim show the bunker had no mechanical ventilation, so I can't comment on them.

(2) Not only have I read the Zyklon-B handling instructions, I posted them. The section you quote refers to disinfestations of buildings, not homicidal gassings, so your point lacks proof.

(3) Your claim about working in gas masks is unsupported by any proof.

(4) The witness gives a date for the first gassing he saw, and then talks about other matters which occurred later while he was at KL Auschwitz, including his contact with Dr. Mengele. The witness does not claim that Dr. Mengele was present at the time of the first gassing. That's why the descriptive paragraph begins with these sentences:

While, on the first occasion, we were taken to the house after the gassing had already taken place, later we were already there when the convoy arrived. Under these conditions I was able to see the whole process.

(5) You're just repeating your mistake about the blue stains and supposed body color. Saying something over and over again doesn't prove it. As for the witness supposedly copying other claims, you haven't produced anything but a supposition. The only logical conclusion is that you are in error, again.

Dear Mr. David Thompson:

(2) And what is the difference in aeration time if both the buildings don't have any mechanical ventilation? I doubt You have really read the instructions: them are really clear on dangers of Zyklon-B.

(3) Is supported by this document, recently discovered and commented by Carlo Mattogno, i.e. "Service Instruction for the Operation of the Hydrocyanic Acid Fumigation Chamber in the Concentration Camp Gusen," which was prepared by the SS camp physician of the Concentration Camp Mauthausen, SS Hauptsturmführer Eduard Krebsbach. The following is the complete text:
"SS camp physician Mauthausen

Mauthausen, 2/26/1942

Service Instruction

for the Operation of the hydrocyanic acid fumigation chamber in the Concentration Camp Gusen


The work with and in the hydrocyanic acid fumigation chamber is extremely dangerous if the following operational instructions are not precisely followed.

During the work inside the hydrocyanic acid chamber, the supervising and working personnel must wear special work clothes, which are tied closed at the hands and feet. After completion of work the work clothes must be immediately taken off and kept in the front room. It is strictly forbidden to take work clothing to the living area.

Before entering the hydrocyanic acid chamber in order to load it, is absolutely necessary to test for gas residues.

Loading moist articles into the gas chamber is not allowed.

The gas residue test equipment has to be checked weekly by the pharmacist of the concentration camp Mauthausen for its usefulness.

During the loading procedure of the gas chamber, all doors and windows are to be kept open. Pieces of clothes, blankets, etc. are to be placed on the racks provided.

After the chamber is loaded, it has to be heated during half an hour to a minimum temperature of 25ºC. After that the windows and doors have to be closed and sealed gastight with paper tapes. Before closing the windows, the gas exhaust openings have to be closed. Then a can of Zyklon B is to be opened outside in open air and the content has to be poured at the provided location from the outside into the chamber. The Zyklon B inlet sliding door has to be closed and sealed gas tight with paper tape. The work can only be performed after putting on a gas mask (special filter).

After the chamber is completely closed gastight, the ventilator inside the chamber has to be switched on.

The exposure time of the hydrocyanic acid on the articles to be disinfested has to be 2 hours.

A large sign with the inscription: 'Attention! Danger! Chamber being gassed!' has to be attached at each side of the chamber and in the front room.

After completion of the gassing time, the gas exhaust opening has to be opened from the outside, while the chamber ventilator is switched on. Also, all these tasks are only allowed to be done with the gas mask (special filter) put on.

The exhaust time has to last at least 1 1/2 to 2 hours.

After 1 hour at the earliest, the gas residue is to be tested at one of the windows. Should this test prove positive, the exhaust time has to be extended. The execution of the gas residue test can only be done with the gas mask on.

After 2 hours at the earliest, depending on the results of the gas residue tests, the articles shall be removed from the chamber. The unloading of the chamber can only be done with gas masks on, even if the gas residue test was negative.

Fumigated pieces of clothes, blankets, etc. can only be used, or taken to the laundry, after being thoroughly aired for at least 6 hours or treated with rug beaters.

It is strictly forbidden to enter gas chambers alone. Everyone who enters a gas chamber has to be observed by at least one other man, so that he can assist in case of an accident. The second, of course, also has to wear a gas mask.

A first-aid kit must always be available and ready to be used. This kit serves exclusively for first-aid in case of accidents in the hydrocyanic acid chamber. It contains, besides the necessary medications, accurate instruction for their use. Everyone who is working with the hydrocyanic acid chamber has to be thoroughly familiar with these directions.

At least twice weekly, the camp medical doctor has to check out the correct operation of the hydrocyanic acid chamber, the age of the special mask filters, and the condition of the first-aid kit.

Operational problems, irregularities, and other occurrences, even of lesser importance, have to be reported immediately to the SS camp physician Mauthausen.

On the fifth of each month the medical camp physician reports:

Number and type of fumigations performed in the chamber.

Quantity of hydrocyanic acid used.

Condition of the first-aid kit and the gas masks.

Which SS members were responsible for the individual gassings.

Special occurrences.

At least once every two weeks the camp physician has to personally check the fitting of gas masks of all participants. Furthermore, every two weeks he has to inform the operating teams that the usable time of the filter inserts lasts several hours in case there are only minor residues of hydrocyanic gas after the ventilation. Without sufficient ventilation the usable time of the filter inserts (with the gas chamber filled) is only 10 minutes.

The SS camp physician Mauthausen

Krebsbach

SS Hauptsturmführer".

See Carlo Mattogno, Auschwitz: "Gas Testers" and Gas Residue Test Kits in The Revisionist 2, 2004 pp. 149ss.

Note that the various times refers to one gas chamber equipped with ventilation system.

(3) No. Also accepting Your bizarre theory, You're wrong . The so called Bunker 1 was closed, according to official historiography, in march 1943 when the Krematorium II was completed. So the presence of Mengele, who was in Birkenau only in June, near Bunker I was imaginary.

(4) So, for You what have caused these curious blue stains? Pure fantasy of this witness, who have believed that because Zyklon-B was called Blausaure he produces blue stains! He isn't the same: also others presumed witnesses claims for blue colour, blue stains of people gassed.

Best Regards

LFS

[David Thompson]

LFS -- I have read the Zyklon B handling instructions, and understand them, which is more than I can say for you. I appreciate your providing the second set of handling instructions from KL Mauthausen, but like the first, they don't prove your claim that lethal concentrations of gas would be present in Bunker 1 after half an hour and they don't disprove the witness's testimony either.

As for the dates when Bunker 1 supposedly operated, you failed to provide a source. You also failed to link the dates of operation with the testimony about Dr. Mengele. Generally, your attempts to discredit a source of information by saying that homicidal gassings never happened, and then try to use the same source to support your point of view, are unconvincing to me, particularly when you're trying to use a "False in one matter, false in all" method to discredit the witness. In other words, your method of using "official historiography" is both inconsistent and hypocritical.

Your unsourced claims about Bunker 1 and the body hues are valueless to me, and more importantly, to our readers. Your theory is not enhanced by repetion, as I have pointed out before on several occasions. If you believe that asking where the stains came from somehow shows that the witness's testimony about Bunker 1 is false, you are mistaken. You haven't even made a showing that the question is relevant.

The sequence of bold assertions, followed by groundless speculation, unsourced claims, lengthy and tendentious essays on tangential and irrelevant facts, pettifogging and conclusion-chanting which you have employed in this discussion is taking us nowhere.

[WalterS]

LFS likes to engage in what is known as "denier science," which really isn't science at all.

The danger of this new denier approach is that few people have the technical background to analyze the papers and understand their fundamental flaws. Too many people glance at the arguments, see "science," and immediately their eyes glaze over. They figure that since it's "scientific," there must be something to it. Thus Holocaust denial gains scientific credibility.

Unfortunately, there's a difference between denier "science" and true science. The fundamental principle of true science is this: any theory must take into account any relevant observable facts. That is, the theory must fit the facts; a true scientist never denies facts simply because they don't fit the theory. The way an honest scientist works is to make observations first, and only then come up with a theory which explains what is seen. If at any time the facts contradict the theory, the theory is discarded as false. A new one must be formed.

The Holocaust deniers reverse this process. First they decide what they want the "facts" to be, contrary to all eyewitness testimony and documentary and physical evidence. They come up with theories to "prove" that the "true" facts must be the way they want them to be. Therefore all documents are forgeries or mean something other than what they clearly seem to mean, and eyewitnesses to events which contradict their theory must be lying, mistaken, crazy, or victims of some form of coercion which caused themto give false testimony.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniqu ... ience.html

So, no matter how many ways you prove to LFS that there were, indeed, homicidal gas chambers at Auschiwtz and other places, he will simply resort to quackery, again, to refute it because he so strongly wishes to believe that there was no Holocaust.

[Lucius Felix Silla]

LFS -- I have read the Zyklon B handling instructions, and understand them, which is more than I can say for you. I appreciate your providing the second set of handling instructions from KL Mauthausen, but like the first, they don't prove your claim that lethal concentrations of gas would be present in Bunker 1 after half an hour and they don't disprove the witness's testimony either.

As for the dates when Bunker 1 supposedly operated, you failed to provide a source. You also failed to link the dates of operation with the testimony about Dr. Mengele. Generally, your attempts to discredit a source of information by saying that homicidal gassings never happened, and then try to use the same source to support your point of view, are unconvincing to me, particularly when you're trying to use a "False in one matter, false in all" method to discredit the witness. In other words, your method of using "official historiography" is both inconsistent and hypocritical.

Your unsourced claims about Bunker 1 and the body hues are valueless to me, and more importantly, to our readers. Your theory is not enhanced by repetion, as I have pointed out before on several occasions. If you believe that asking where the stains came from somehow shows that the witness's testimony about Bunker 1 is false, you are mistaken. You haven't even made a showing that the question is relevant.

The sequence of bold assertions, followed by groundless speculation, unsourced claims, lengthy and tendentious essays on tangential and irrelevant facts, pettifogging and conclusion-chanting which you have employed in this discussion is taking us nowhere.

Sources: np. "When the new gas chambers and crematoria entered operation in the spring of 1943, use of the two "bunkers" ceased. Bunker 1 and the adjacent barracks were demolished and the burning pits filled in and levelled." (see F. Piper, The methods of mass murder, p. 143, in Auschwitz 1940-45. Central Issues of the History camp. vol.III. Oswiecim 2002).

I take notice of Your impotence to debate with me without recurring to a series of insults towards my logic.
I take also notice that You don't have answered to my questions, differently from me.

I will concentrate my efforts on next presumed eyewitness: the first is proved to be unreliable.

Best Regards

LFS

[WalterS]

You was capable to write something of original for one single time?

This is a research forum, which fact has obviously escaped you. I credit my sources and I use those sources to, as in this case, point out that your silly pseudo-science techniques are not unique to this forum, that deniers such as yourself use them often, and I give readers of this forum a link to a site which explains Holocaust denial, which you espouse, in great detail.

So, once again, your cheap shot falls flat.

Walter S

[David Thompson]

LFS -- You said:

I take notice of Your impotence to debate with me without recurring to a series of insults towards my logic.

It's because your "logic" hasn't any. It is unrealistic of you to expect that no one would comment on the extensive shortcomings of your argument.

An insulting post of LFS which was directly at WalterS, and which added nothing to the conversation, was deleted by the moderator -- DT.

[WalterS]

Thanks, David, but it really wasn't much of an insult. 8)

[Sergey Romanov]

LFS:

> 1) According to this testimony, after 20 minutes from the launch of the gassing, the doors were opened and 30 minutes after the work of removing the bodies start.
> This is phisically and chemically impossible: the so called Bunker I don't have any mechanical ventilation, how is possible that after 30 minutes of naural aeration, the mebers of the sonderkommandos under the orders of SS cuold have started their work. They would been immediately killed by gas.

So, the old man might have gotten the time wrong after 40 years. BIG DEAL!

> 2) The mention to the presence of Dr. Mengele is a clamorous fake. Dr. Mengele joined Auschwitz on May 30 1943 (see H. Kubica, "The Crimes of Josef Mengele", in Anatomy of Auschwitz Death Camp, Indianapolis, 1994, p.319).

Doctor Mengele who was often [present] or another doctor replacing him, gave an SS man the order to inject the gas.

Simple mistake (i.e. Buki witnessed Mengele doing this at a later time at another place, and confused the events after 40 years) or wrong assumption (since it was the doctor, and Mengele was notorious, Buki might have assumed that it HAD to be Mengele, at least at some times).

> 3) He states that the colour of victims was blue. But as any medical/chemical book can confirms the colour of victims by HCN was RED.

Hmm, source?

> To sum up, this witness don't have see nothing about presumend gassings in Bunker 1.

Only a denier could make such an unfounded conclusion.

> 2) As for the problem of the concentration of HCN still dangerous after 30 minutes of natural ventilation with two only doors to aerate, i suggest to You to read the document NI-9912 Guidelines for the Use of Prussic Acid (Zyklon) For Destruction of Vermin (Disinfestation).
> (...) XI. Aeration: 12. Aeration should last at least 20 hours."

Aeration of what, exactly? Of buildings with many rooms, furniture etc.? How can you apply the same standard to a simple room?

> 3) Wearing gas masks can only permits to open the doors but not work inside a gas saturated with HCN.

What's your evidence for this? Denier Berg long claimed that victims of CO poisoning should have been bluish, so Gerstein who claimed that they were reddish was wrong. It turned out that cyanosis could result in red spots on the skin. could the situation be the same with HCN poisoning, and if not, why not?

> Pure fantasy of this witness, who have believed that because Zyklon-B was called Blausaure he produces blue stains!

He doesn't say that, so it's your fantasy.

DAVID:

> LFS -- (1) I don't have access to the sources you claim show the bunker had no mechanical ventilation, so I can't comment on them.

David, Bunker I had no mechanical ventilation.

> I have read the Zyklon B handling instructions, and understand them, which is more than I can say for you. I appreciate your providing the second set of handling instructions from KL Mauthausen, but like the first, they don't prove your claim that lethal concentrations of gas would be present in Bunker 1 after half an hour and they don't disprove the witness's testimony either.

It seems that they had to be lethal since Zyklon B would continue to give off gas for a certain time. LFS is also correct about Mengele and Bunker 1, not that it matters much.

[David Thompson]

Sergey -- You said:

David, Bunker I had no mechanical ventilation.

and

It seems that they had to be lethal since Zyklon B would continue to give off gas for a certain time. LFS is also correct about Mengele and Bunker 1, not that it matters much.

Exchanging facts and information is one of the primary purposes of the forum. That way the readers have more to work with than conclusory opinions.

[Lucius Felix Silla]

3) He states that the colour of victims was blue. But as any medical/chemical book can confirms the colour of victims by HCN was RED.

Hmm, source?



Sources for colour of the victims of HCN (i have derived from Rudolf Rapport, p.192):

-W. Wirth, C. Gloxhuber, Toxikologie, Georg Thieme Verlag, Stuttgart 1985, pp. 159 ss.
-W. Forth, D. Henschler, W. Rummel, Allgemeine und spezielle Pharmakologie und Toxikologie,
Wissenschaftsverlag, Mannheim 1987, pp. 751 ss.
- H.-H. Wellhöner, Allgemeine und systematische Pharmakologie und Toxikologie, Springer
Verlag, Berlin 1988, pp. 445 ss-

Best Regards

[Sergey Romanov]

http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/a0518.htm

In most cases, cyanide poisoning causes a deceptively healthy pink to red skin color. However, if a physical injury or lack of oxygen is involved, the skin color may be bluish. Reddening of the eyes and pupil dilation are symptoms of cyanide poisoning. Cyanosis (blue discoloration of the skin) tends to be associated with severe cyanide poisonings.

http://www.biochemhazard.com/hydrogen%20cyanide.htm

AC=HCN

AC poisoning causes a deceptively healthy pink to red skin color. However, if physical injury or lack of oxygen is involved, the skin color may be bluish.

But then again, what Buki (and other witnesses, if you're correct) were talking about might have been simple bruises, which certainly can look bluish (BTW, in Russian bruise is "sinyak", which derives from "sinij", blue, so, actually, it might have been even the result of the mistranslation from different Slavic languages).

There goes another canard.

[xcalibur]

3) He states that the colour of victims was blue. But as any medical/chemical book can confirms the colour of victims by HCN was RED.

Hmm, source?



Sources for colour of the victims of HCN (i have derived from Rudolf Rapport, p.192):

-W. Wirth, C. Gloxhuber, Toxikologie, Georg Thieme Verlag, Stuttgart 1985, pp. 159 ss.
-W. Forth, D. Henschler, W. Rummel, Allgemeine und spezielle Pharmakologie und Toxikologie,
Wissenschaftsverlag, Mannheim 1987, pp. 751 ss.
- H.-H. Wellhöner, Allgemeine und systematische Pharmakologie und Toxikologie, Springer
Verlag, Berlin 1988, pp. 445 ss-

Best Regards

Under the heading "Health Effects", sub-heading "Respiratory"at the following website:


http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/MHMI/mmg8.html

"a bluish skin color may or may not be present"

[Lucius Felix Silla]

http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/a0518.htm

In most cases, cyanide poisoning causes a deceptively healthy pink to red skin color. However, if a physical injury or lack of oxygen is involved, the skin color may be bluish. Reddening of the eyes and pupil dilation are symptoms of cyanide poisoning. Cyanosis (blue discoloration of the skin) tends to be associated with severe cyanide poisonings.

http://www.biochemhazard.com/hydrogen%20cyanide.htm

AC=HCN

AC poisoning causes a deceptively healthy pink to red skin color. However, if physical injury or lack of oxygen is involved, the skin color may be bluish.

But then again, what Buki (and other witnesses, if you're correct) were talking about might have been simple bruises, which certainly can look bluish (BTW, in Russian bruise is "sinyak", which derives from "sinij", blue, so, actually, it might have been even the result of the mistranslation from different Slavic languages).

There goes another canard.

1) You derived the first quote from a product called
ACENOTRILE
Synonyms: Methyl Cyanide; Cyanomethane; Ethanenitrile; Ethyl nitrile
CAS No.: 75-05-8
Molecular Weight: 41.05
Chemical Formula: CH3 CN
Product Codes:
J.T. Baker: 9011, 9017, 9018, 9019, 9020, 9021, 9023, 9035, 9255, 9366, 9821, 9829, A691
Mallinckrodt: 0043, 2442, 2856, 6936, H076, H454, V070, XLK-011

The second is Hydrogen Cyanide=HCN.

Both read as symptoms of cyanide poisoning:

In most cases, cyanide poisoning causes a deceptively healthy pink to red skin color. However, if a physical injury or lack of oxygen is involved, the skin color may be bluish.

AC poisoning causes a deceptively healthy pink to red skin color. However, if physical injury or lack of oxygen is involved, the skin color may be bluish.

So the poison symptoms is HEALTHY PINK TO RED SKIN COLOR. Only in specifics eveniences the skin color MAY BE bluish.

I appreciate Your herculean linguistic efforts but the problem with Your thesis is that this declaration was taken by a notarian in Jerusalem: so the language was the hebrew.

And with all respects to source kindly posted by Mr. xcalibur i think to have post some serious academical sources.

Best Regards

LFS

[Sergey Romanov]

So the poison symptoms is HEALTHY PINK TO RED SKIN COLOR. Only in specifics eveniences the skin color MAY BE bluish.

... these specific "eveniences" being ... physical injury or lack of oxygen! Exactly what we would expect in a gas chamber. You just can't admit being wrong, do you?

[Sergey Romanov]

> I appreciate Your herculean linguistic efforts but the problem with Your thesis is that this declaration was taken by a notarian in Jerusalem: so the language was the hebrew.

That may be so, but that does not mean that many bruises aren't bluish!