Eichmann and legal rights

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R.M. Schultz
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Eichmann and legal rights

Post by R.M. Schultz » 09 Jul 2004 18:31

Question: During the Eichmann investigation and trial, did the Israelis give Adolf Eichmann the same legal rights as they normally afforded Israeli citizens?

 

Paddy Keating
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Post by Paddy Keating » 09 Jul 2004 18:57

Did Eichmann enjoy the same rights as an Israeli citizen? Yes. He got the sort of the treatment to which Israelis of Arab origin and dissidents like Mordechai Vannunu could equate.

Was the trial legal to begin with? Leaving the moral issues aside - any good lawyer will tell you that the law has nothing to do with right and wrong - was it legal to kidnap a foreign national, haul him off to a country that didn't exist when the crimes of which he was accused were committed and execute him after a trial in which the accused's acquittal was never a likelihood?

If you allow countries to do this and get away with it, you set dangerous precedents. But then, of course, Israel appears to be exempted from the rules that are applied to the rest of the civilised world, like United Nations resolutions and the interdiction imposed upon the possession of weapons of mass destruction by aggressive Middle Eastern states.

Not that I'm saying that Eichmann didn't deserve what he got. I'd pull the lever of the gallows myself in the case of a murderous bureaucrat like him. But it was essentially a show trial and execution of a man underscored by a blatant and now characteristic disregard for international law on the part of the Israeli establishment.

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Post by Topspeed » 09 Jul 2004 19:33

That sounds reasonable thinking. Recently saw the document too. In 1957 he had confessed someone that without him the mass transportations would have never been so effective. Eichmann seemed to have been well fed and fully aware. One thing thou was evident his eyelashes were blinking very rapidly. Isn't that a sign of extreme stress or lack of sleep ?

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Post by CoffeeCake » 09 Jul 2004 22:48

During his trial and kidnapping, Eichmann was drugged to keep him from escaping and to tell the truth. His lack of defense at trial could also be a result from the sedatives given to him. After his kidnapping, the Israeli's "interrogated" him.
After his kidnapping, Argentina asked for a formal apology from Israel, to which this day, it hasn't been given.

What Israel did was a violation of international law, even if it is Eichmann. I would like to kill him myself, but there are set boundaries to do so. There wasn't even a request to hand him over, and the Mossad took matters to their own hands. The show trial makes Israel as bad as Nazi Germany and the "people's courts" in which they will find guilty no matter what. That's just my opinion though. The fact is, he was a foreign national kidnapped off foreign soil.

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Post by David Thompson » 10 Jul 2004 00:51

Paddy Keating said:
Leaving the moral issues aside - any good lawyer will tell you that the law has nothing to do with right and wrong - was it legal to kidnap a foreign national, haul him off to a country that didn't exist when the crimes of which he was accused were committed and execute him after a trial in which the accused's acquittal was never a likelihood?

If you allow countries to do this and get away with it, you set dangerous precedents. But then, of course, Israel appears to be exempted from the rules that are applied to the rest of the civilised world, like United Nations resolutions and the interdiction imposed upon the possession of weapons of mass destruction by aggressive Middle Eastern states.

Not that I'm saying that Eichmann didn't deserve what he got. I'd pull the lever of the gallows myself in the case of a murderous bureaucrat like him. But it was essentially a show trial and execution of a man underscored by a blatant and now characteristic disregard for international law on the part of the Israeli establishment.

and CoffeeCake said:
During his trial and kidnapping, Eichmann was drugged to keep him from escaping and to tell the truth. His lack of defense at trial could also be a result from the sedatives given to him. After his kidnapping, the Israeli's "interrogated" him.
After his kidnapping, Argentina asked for a formal apology from Israel, to which this day, it hasn't been given.

What Israel did was a violation of international law, even if it is Eichmann. I would like to kill him myself, but there are set boundaries to do so. There wasn't even a request to hand him over, and the Mossad took matters to their own hands. The show trial makes Israel as bad as Nazi Germany and the "people's courts" in which they will find guilty no matter what. That's just my opinion though. The fact is, he was a foreign national kidnapped off foreign soil.

Interested readers might want to take a look at United States v. Alvarez-Machain, 504 U. S. 655 (1992), in which the US Supreme Court upheld the legality of similar kidnapping procedures, at:
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/g ... &invol=655
For related issues see Sosa v. Alvarez-Mechain, et al., decided a couple of weeks ago by the US Supreme Court, at:
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/g ... vol=03-339

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Post by CoffeeCake » 10 Jul 2004 19:32

Thanks David. I think circumstances are different because

1) The act was committed against an American citizen
2) Statue of limitations wasn't broken
3) There was a consenus with Mexican citizens (They were the ones who initiated the kidnapping, not American citizens)

In Eichmann's case

1) Israel didn't exist at the time the crimes were comitted (so there were no Israeli citizens)
2) It had been some 16 years since it has passed (don't know the statue of limitations on Israel)
3) The Mossad didn't even ask Argentina for a formal handover. No Argentinians were involved in the "extradition" process.

Eichmann may be the scum of the Earth, but taking matters into your own hands and then having a mock trial to show for it is kind of wrong. The Israelis showed themselves to be nothing more than a lynch mob (even if it is Eichmann, who did kill millions upon millions of Jews).

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Post by xcalibur » 10 Jul 2004 21:50

It should be noted here that there was no extradition treaty between Israel and Argentina in 1960.

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Post by Panzermahn » 11 Jul 2004 05:55

conclusion, even Eichmann was a mass murderer, what the Mossad did with the authorization of the Israeli government makes them no difference with Gestapo of the Third Reich..

I heard that Simon Wiesenthal claimed that he assisted the mossad by supplying them intelligence on Eichmann's location but this was rebuffed even by the commander of the Mossad team who abducts Eichmann

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Post by Vadim » 11 Jul 2004 07:18

Joachim Chan wrote:I heard that Simon Wiesenthal claimed that he assisted the mossad by supplying them intelligence on Eichmann's location but this was rebuffed even by the commander of the Mossad team who abducts Eichmann
Isser Harel did say that, but I am not sure what that has to do with anything. Or did you just have to bring up Wiesenthal for kicks? In any case, Harel always had an ax to grind with Wiesenthal as he felt that the latter is trying to steal his thunder and take credit for the kidnapping.

It has always been my understanding that Wiesenthal did not play a major role in the capture but he was indeed involved. This is from Court TV's Crime Library archive:
But back in Austria, in his hometown of Linz, Nazi hunter Simon Wiesenthal was also restless. Though he knew Eichmann was still alive, his exact location was unknown. In 1954, Wiesenthal visited a friend who, like himself, was a stamp collector. While the friends spoke, the man said that he recently received a letter from an acquaintance who had moved to Buenos Aires, where ironically, there was also a very large Jewish community. When Wiesenthal read the letter, he nearly choked from the excitement. "I saw that dirty pig Eichmann," the man wrote, "He lives near Buenos Aires and works for a water company." Wiesenthal passed the information along to the Israelis.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/gangsters_o ... ml?sect=18
Last edited by Vadim on 11 Jul 2004 07:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Panzermahn » 11 Jul 2004 07:29

Joachim Chan wrote:
I heard that Simon Wiesenthal claimed that he assisted the mossad by supplying them intelligence on Eichmann's location but this was rebuffed even by the commander of the Mossad team who abducts Eichmann
Isser Harel did say that, but I am not sure what that have to do with anything.


Okay here you are

But Isser Harel, the Israeli official who headed the team that captured Eichmann, has declared unequivocally that Wiesenthal had "absolutely nothing" to do with the capture. (Harel is a former head of both the Mossad and Shin Bet, Israel's foreign and domestic security agencies.) In addition, Arnold Forster, general counsel of the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith, the influential Zionist organization, reported in his book Square One that just before the Israelis seized Eichmann in Argentina, Wiesenthal was placing him in both Japan and Saudi Arabia. When the Israeli government refused to give Wiesenthal funds to search for Eichmann, the "Nazi hunter" issued a statement to the Israeli press claiming the government was refusing to help capture the former SS man. [31]


Footnote
S. Birnbaum, "Wiesenthal's Claim on Eichmann disputed by Former Mossad head," Jewish Telegraphic Agency Daily News Bulletin (New York), April 4, 1989. (Dispatch dated April 3). See also: "Israeli Spy Terms Wiesenthal No Help in Finding Eichmann," Reuters dispatch from New York, St. Louis Post- Dispatch, April 9, 1989. Facsimile reprint in Christian News, April 24, 1989, p. 17.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v09/v09p439_Weber.html

Hope you're happy enough :P

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Vadim
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Post by Vadim » 11 Jul 2004 07:33

Thanks for the quotes. I edited my post when I realized you were talking about Harel. Its late here in NYC... :P However, Wiesenthal's involvement or lack thereof hardly has anything to do with the topic at hand. If he was involved, good for him.

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Post by Mostowka » 11 Jul 2004 15:44

The abduction - trial - execution was (as many allready have pointed out) completly wrong from a strickly legal point of view.

But was is wrong from a moral point of view ? This of course applies to which moral you are currently abiding by. Morally and in the memory of the people so effectivly deported by Eichmann this was the only right thing to do.

The question is whether you will follow the principles of legality to death and without question do exactly what the law tells you. Extraordinary crimes like genocide tend to take a heavy toll on legal systems that were not made to accomodate these cases.

Panzermahm wrote:

them no difference with Gestapo of the Third Reich..


Can we at least once be spared your completly brainless comments ?

But ok, lets have it your way.

1) Could you supply a list of Mossad contra Gestapo activities that have been similiar or otherwise close in terms of brutality ?

2) Could you in more detail elaborate how Gestapo and Mossas bear resemblance ?

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Post by Dan » 11 Jul 2004 15:49

But was is wrong from a moral point of view ? This of course applies to which moral you are currently abiding by. Morally and in the memory of the people so effectivly deported by Eichmann this was the only right thing to do.


Countries like Poland and Lithuania have for decades tried to get Israel to extridite mass murderers but Israel refuses. If what happened to Eichmann was moral, does that mean Poland and Lithuania have a moral obligation to try to kidnap those Jewish murderers? If so, are those counties acting immorally by going through fruitless legal channels?

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Post by Sergey Romanov » 11 Jul 2004 16:36

> If what happened to Eichmann was moral, does that mean Poland and Lithuania have a moral obligation to try to kidnap those Jewish murderers?

I don't think they have any obligations, but if they would do it, it would be OK, but only with Israel, since Israelis did think that it was OK with Eichmann. I'm not quite sure about other countries.

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Post by xcalibur » 11 Jul 2004 16:59


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