Polish soldiers in the Wehrmacht/Waffen-SS?

Discussions on the foreigners (volunteers as well as conscripts) fighting in the German Wehrmacht, those collaborating with the Axis and other period Far Right organizations. Hosted by George Lepre.
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PolAntek
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Post by PolAntek » 10 Jul 2003 05:52

Maxis: Thanks again for the added info. Sorry – I have no info on the Blau Polizei.

Jerzy: Your info on the formation of the Polish GG force was interesting. Unfortunately, English sources of information on this topic are virtually non-existent (I read Polish – but painfully slow…- and even those sources are extremely rare )

VeleV, your comments are interesting considering that the pre-war sentiment of many Poles seemed to be decidedly more anti-German than Soviet. Were your relatives and friends from the eastern part of Poland invaded by the Soviets?

Lastly, Aftershock2222 – re. Kinski:

Born:
1926 -- Sopot(Zoppot), Free State of Danzig
Real name:
Nikolaus (Claus) Günther Nakszynski
Died:
1991

From the name he seems to have been German with some Polish ancestry.

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Orlov
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Polish volunteers in Germany Army (or Waffen-SS) in 1945

Post by Orlov » 14 Mar 2004 18:06

I would like ask all who knows documents and facts about Jagdeinsatz Polen, which training in 1945 in sabotage center near Walbrzych (?)
or
Polish volunteers of NSZ's (NArodowe Sily Zbrojne=National Armed Forces) formation "BRYGADA SWIETOKRZYSKA" which evacuated by Silesia and Protectorate B-M to the American Forces
or
any other Polish in 28. Grenadier Division der SS (1. byelorussian) ?
or
...

Thanks for all information
Orlovci

Kunnar Kesküla
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Feldpost

Post by Kunnar Kesküla » 14 Mar 2004 19:52

Not much i guess, but there is feldpostnumber of Jagdeinsatz Polen:

13025 at 16.01.45 to the end Jagdeinsatz Polen SS-Jagdverband Ost


Regards
Kunnar

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henryk
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Post by henryk » 15 Mar 2004 22:12

Narodowe Sily Zbrojne fought against Germany, not for Germany. See:
http://www.yourencyclopedia.net/Narodow ... rojne.html
NARODOWE SILY ZBROJNE - The NSZ was the Polish armed underground guerilla, fighting Nazi German occupation in General Government. It occupied the extreme right wing of political spectrum. Programm included fight against Nazi Germany and Stalinist Soviet Union for independence of Poland, keep Polish pre-war borders in the east and gain territories of current Poland in the west.
The NSZ is accused of chauvinism and anti-Semitism. Some historians believe that the NSZ murdered hundreds of Jews who sought refuge in the forests. NSZ itself underlined, that it fought with Soviet partisants, many of them of Jewish origins. It also fought with the Polish communist partisans of Armia Ludowa (AL). Thanks to the policy of no-cooperation with Soviets and unlike Home Army (AK), that was completely transparent to Soviet security services, NSZ remained the military and political power when Poland was taken over by Red Army. The NSZ struggled against the new regime, while allegedly continuing to murder Holocaust survivors, whose as NSZ believed were the base for communist government. The members of NSZ were persecuted in the stalinist years after the war.
NSZ was created in September 20th 1942. It reached about 70,000 members. Part of NSZ joined in March 1944 the Home Army (AK). NSZ fought in Warsaw Uprising. In January 1945, the NSZ Holy Cross Mountains Brigade (Brygada Świętokrzyska) retreated before the Red Army with the Germans approval, into the German protectorate of Czech and Moravia. It, however, fought against Germans again in May 5th 1945 in Bohemia, when NSZ freed women from concentration camp in Holiszowo. In fight they shown many sacrifices.
Commanders: colonel Ignacy Oziewicz colonel Tadeusz Kurcyusz colonel Stanislaw Kasznica

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henryk
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Post by henryk » 15 Mar 2004 23:05

http://www.feldgrau.com/poland.html
Their is no question that the fate of Poland under German and Soviet occupation was harsh. Of all the nations of Europe, Poles suffered the highest per-capita losses, with 1 in every 5.9 persons being killed as a result of the conflict, most under the brutal rule of the German security and police forces. Along side this cruel reality, Poles pride themselves on the fact that their nation was the only one not to collaborate with the enemy. Although this is true to a degree, if one looks closely at the issue there were in fact a few select cases of Polish foreign volunteers during WWII.
There existed in Poland, as in nearly every other region of Europe during the time of WWII, a distinct group that was ripe for voluntary or conscripted service within or alongside the Reich. This group was known as the Volksdeutsche. Volksdeutsche were historic ethnic enclaves resident beyond the German boarder that for political and/or traditional reasons were considered a part of greater Germany. It was from among these groups that the Germans first gathered volunteers from Poland. Although they are not technically thought of as Poles by the Germans, the ethnic German Volksdeutsche were in reality from Poland and can thus be seen as Polish volunteers.
For information on the Waffen SS: http://www.wssob.com/wss.html
Russian (Belorussia) : 29th and 30th Divisions:
http://www.wssob.com/030divrus.html
http://www.wssob.com/029divrus.html
Belgian- (28th-Freiwilligen-Grenadier Division Wallonien) (served in Poland ): http://www.wssob.com/028divwal.html

mars
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Re: Polish volunteers in Germany Army (or Waffen-SS) in 1945

Post by mars » 16 Mar 2004 18:15

orlovci wrote:I would like ask all who knows documents and facts about Jagdeinsatz Polen, which training in 1945 in sabotage center near Walbrzych (?)
or
Polish volunteers of NSZ's (NArodowe Sily Zbrojne=National Armed Forces) formation "BRYGADA SWIETOKRZYSKA" which evacuated by Silesia and Protectorate B-M to the American Forces
or
any other Polish in 28. Grenadier Division der SS (1. byelorussian) ?
or
...

Thanks for all information
Orlovci
That depends how you defined "Polish vojunteers", if you defines them as thoes who had Polish citizenship before the WWII, yes there were quite of a few them, but you defined them as those Polish citizen who were Polish origin, then there were very few.

Ostuf Charlemagne
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Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 17 Mar 2004 00:11

You all forget the Polish Sonderdienst under command of local HSSPF.
About 7 battalions including a Cavalry Squadron .

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David Lehmann
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Post by David Lehmann » 17 Mar 2004 01:33


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henryk
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Post by henryk » 17 Mar 2004 20:44

To Panzermeyer;
The two sites you give provide a biased pro-communist view of the NPZ. These views have long been discredited. See:
http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~sarmatia/401/212ciencia.html
The Gwardia Ludowa (People's Guard) 1942-1944, renamed the Armia Ludowa (People's Army) in January 1944, was the military arm of the Polska Partia Robotnicza (PPR, or Polish Workers' Party), set up to rule postwar Poland. In the first years of the Polish People's Republic, it was touted as the only underground force that really fought the Germans in World War II. This was done to legitimize communist power in the eyes of the Polish people. Therefore, the main military underground organization during World War II, the AK (Armia Krajowa, or the Home Army, that recognized the Polish government in London), and also the radical right wing NSZ (Narodowe Sily Zbrojne, or National Armed Forces, the military arm of the Stronnictwo Narodowe, or National Party, which sometimes recognized that government), were condemned as representing the interests of landowners and capitalists, oppressors of minorities, and 'fascists.'
The three-volume set of documents under review aims to show not only that the GL-AL was far less numerous than regime historians claimed in the past, but also that it consisted mainly of robber bands; that their leaders often collaborated with the Germans; that they murdered members of the 'nationalist' resistance and, contrary to the long-accepted view of a pro-Jewish AL, that it also murdered Jews. Finally, the aim is to show that regime historians falsified documents to prove that the GL-AL fought battles with the Germans, when the lion's share of the fighting was really done by 'nationalist' forces. In the 1990s, three young right-wing historians set out to destroy the PPR-GL-AL legend and, at the same time, rehabilitate the image of the NSZ.

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henryk
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Post by henryk » 17 Mar 2004 20:50

Some details of the Npz march to the west can be found on:
http://www.mailbox.olsztyn.pl/users/mai ... dex2-e.htm
An example, is the unjust and groundless image of the National Armed Forces, built and impressed on the minds of Poles by the communist rulers.
The National Armed Forces (NSZ), a part of the Polish underground resistance movement, was falsely accused of the collaboration with the German invaders and of initiating the civil war. These were serious accusations and were used as a cover by the "peoples authorities" to murder thousands of innocent citizens, disgrace their names and molest their families. The grounds for this ruthless persecution were simple: the NSZ anti-communist attitude from the very moment of its inception and its never-ending fight for independence and sovereignty.
The march of the Swietokrzyska Brigade to the Wests, served as, and was used as the most important evidence of the collaboration with the German enemy. But there are undisputed facts and documents testifying to the military operations conducted by the Brigade against the German invader.
In January 1945, to avoid the annihilation by Soviets, the Brigade moved to the West and entered the status of "non-intervention with German forces". But the Brigade never acted on behalf or on the side of the German forces. To the cotrary, just a day prior to the so called "agreement with the German forces", on January 14-th 1945, they fought them, taking prisoners including several officers, who later were rather helpful in crossing the Pilica river. One day prior to joining the forces with the American 3-rd Army of gen. Patton, on May 5-th 1945, the Brigade, after a fight with German units, liberated the extermination camp at Holiszow , thus saving the life of 1000 women prisoners codemned to death (Poles, Jews, French and Russians). On the 6-th of May 1945 in a joint action with the American forces, the Brigade attacked and captured the Headquarters of the German XII Army.

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David Lehmann
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Post by David Lehmann » 17 Mar 2004 21:01

Hello Henryk,

Sorry, that was not at all at will, I know nothing about the subject, these two links were given on a discussion list, I thought it may interest someone in the thread.

Regards,

David

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David Lehmann
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Post by David Lehmann » 18 Mar 2004 08:02

Hi again ... I gave your links on this discussion group anf I have been insulted by the guy ... I don't know which links are the most trustful ...
The two pages I posted links to contain the truthful information with
regard to GL, AL, and the NSZ. The claims about the NSZ are well
backed-up with numerous independent personal testimonies, along with
documents from Polish archives, as well as the German Bundesarchiv in
Freiburg.

It is the sites that YOU posted that contain complete falsehoods on
the subject matter.

I advise that before you make such blatant and arrogant accusations
toward anyone, you back it up with more appropriate sources, not some
silly right-wing propaganda sites whose only true purpose is to
change history and to white-wash criminals and national traitors.

Do you want an unbiased account of the GL and AL?

Perhaps you can check this page:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/places/polan ... ow-02.html

For the "lion's share" of fighting, perhaps you should also check
these pages:

http://wolnapolska.boom.ru/index-ZiemiKieleckiej.html
http://wolnapolska.boom.ru/index-SynowieMazowsza.html
http://wolnapolska.boom.ru/index-OBAL1.html
http://wolnapolska.boom.ru/index-LWP.html
For an unbiased and objective site that lists numbers of the
individual Polish formations in Poland, you can check this site:

http://www.arts.gla.ac.uk/Slavonic/L1HwwII.htm

AK - 200 000
AL - 55 000

----

NSZ collaborators - 7 000, quite a far cry from their "70 000" they
ever so often claim.

Even I am much more generous with their numbers, but I list them when
they were at their peak, whereas I suspect this site lists only the
number of the NSZ members left after part of it joined the AK.

http://wolnapolska.boom.ru/index-axis.html
Once again it is not my point I know nothing about these facts ... I just know what to believe in.

David

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henryk
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Post by henryk » 21 Mar 2004 00:38

The discussion has gone off-topic. The topic of the letter is: Polish volunteers in Germany Army (or Waffen-SS) in 1945. Neither the NSZ or AL are Axis Forces. There have been accusations of collaboration with the Germans, which have been denied by both organizations.
The points I made on the AL used a quote made by Anna M. Cienciala in Sarmatian Review: Apr 2001, Vol XXI. no 2.
http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~sarmatia/401/212ciencia.html
This was from her review on "Tajne oblicze GL-AL PPR Dokumenty" (The Secret Face of the People's Guard-People's Army of the Polish Workers' Party: Documents). Cienciala is a history professor emeritus of the University of Kansas. She is the distinguished author of many books and articles on Poland and Central and East Europe. True the document reviewed can be claimed to be right wing but I quoted only her acceptance of part of the book reviewed. Her review is rather harsh and discounts parts of the book. The author's response was in the Sarmatian Review: Letters Sept 2001Vol XXI, No. 3
http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~sarmatia/901/213letters.htm
The reviewer's response was in the Sarmatian Review: Lettrers Sept 2001Vol XXI, No. 3
http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~sarmatia/102/221letters.html
Thus I did not use any "right wing" sources.
The sites given by the AL supporter are curious. I don't know who John Bates is, but for the AK (Armia Krajowa- Home Army- the main underground organization) is usually given as 300,000 not 200,000 ( http://polishresistance-ak.org/Main%20Page.htm )
Did you know that the largest underground resistance army during World War 2 was the Polish Home Army? 300,000 strong at its peak it is credited with supplying the Allies with constant intelligence information about the eastern front, providing information about the V-1 rocket in Peenemunde, the sending over to Britain of the V-2 rocket, the sabotage and destruction of German supply trains and communication centres. It carried out the war’s largest uprising (the Warsaw Rising) which lasted 63 days. The fate of these men and women was to be hounded, often killed and deported by the Soviet “liberators".
Also the AL sites are located not in Poland or the West but in the Ukraine and Russia. "wolnapolska' is ironic. It reminds me of the name of a town in Prussian Poland: in German- Freistadt (Free city) and in Polish- Niewolna (Captive).

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henryk
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Post by henryk » 21 Mar 2004 00:59

I apologize. I did use one "right wing" site.
http://www.mailbox.olsztyn.pl/users/mai ... dex2-e.htm
This is the NSZ site.

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Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 22 Mar 2004 01:54

Pic Of Polish Sonderdienst ,city of Lemberg .I know the fate of a pole drafted as volksdeutsche into the german army (but he was more polish-pole than volksdeutsche .) His name was Kristola .In November 1943 he belonged to the 3rd company ,Jaegerregiment 737 of the 117th Jaeger division .They were garrisoned at Selassia ,north of Sparta ,Greece . Kristola and 5 men were ordered to go as protection of a small 3 trucks convoy (the drivers were italian soldiers who denied the betrayal of Badoglio one month ago anf joined the 117th division as Hiwis .Since it was also some french volksdeutschen in this group it makes for a real european troop.) They convoyed a load of oats for the horses of a mounted artillery unit at 60 kms up to the north ... They comebacked on second day with 18 men on leave .On their way back they fallen in an ambush . Most were killed and some woundeds taken prisoners by the greek partisans . Kristola was among them .At first their boots were taken away by the partisans who bring them in the mountains .During the night ,a partisan with a flashlight and a pistol shot the prisoners ,inlcuding Kristola who was killed .(Some few ones managed to escape and were found by a german rescue column.... Few days later the germans shot 200 hostages as reprisals at the same place of the ambush .)
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