Soviet POWs in Polish death camps

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Rarog
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Soviet POWs in Polish death camps

Post by Rarog » 11 Aug 2004 20:37

http://www.ibmh.msk.su/vivovoco/VV/PAPE ... UCHOLA.HTM

Out of 120-130 thousand Soviet POWs 69.000 were re-patriated, 6 thousands decided to saty in Poland, died in captivity 50-60 thousands.

They died not only because of starvation and inhumane treatment, but many were shot as well, for example, acc. to orders of general Sikorski (as a Polish source say).

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Post by David Thompson » 11 Aug 2004 21:37

Links to a non-English site don't help the overwhelming majority of our readers, unless there's a translation.

Rarog
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Post by Rarog » 11 Aug 2004 21:45

David Thompson wrote:Links to a non-English site don't help the overwhelming majority of our readers, unless there's a translation.
Can't this majority use a translator?

PS. Naturally, I'm using sources I'm familiar with.

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Marcus
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Post by Marcus » 11 Aug 2004 21:49

Rarog wrote:Can't this majority use a translator?
Considering the low quality of the online translators available today, that isn't an option so we expect the members to provide translation of their sources.

/Marcus

Rarog
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Post by Rarog » 11 Aug 2004 22:02

Marcus Wendel wrote:
Rarog wrote:Can't this majority use a translator?
Considering the low quality of the online translators available today, that isn't an option so we expect the members to provide translation of their sources.

/Marcus
I can't translate the entire article(s), I can just translate selected quotes or give the summary, I'm afraid.

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Liluh
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Post by Liluh » 11 Aug 2004 22:27

".SU" in the URL goes for Soviet Union I guess? Pfft :roll:

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Post by David Thompson » 11 Aug 2004 22:37

Rarog -- You said:
I can just translate selected quotes or give the summary, I'm afraid.
Do one or the other or don't post it at all.

Rarog
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Post by Rarog » 11 Aug 2004 23:28

David Thompson wrote:Rarog -- You said:
I can just translate selected quotes or give the summary, I'm afraid.
Do one or the other or don't post it at all.
I posted the summary... I admit it was scarce... ok, I'll add more info.

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Benoit Douville
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Post by Benoit Douville » 12 Aug 2004 01:24

I would be interested to read that Soviet propaganda. Do you mean the death camps located in Poland run by the Germans or death camps run by the Poles??? because it never existed and Sikorski never ordered to shot anyone.

Regards

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yerbamatt
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Post by yerbamatt » 12 Aug 2004 03:08

Hello everybody,

There's an interesting book in English about the matter:
"Russian & Ukrainian Prisoners of War and Internees Kept in Poland in 1918-1924"
by prof. Zbigniew Karpus (translated by Rafal Schmidtke), published by Adam Marszalek Publishers in Torun, August 2001, ISBN 83-7471-956-2 ,
presenting a Polish point of view.

Shortly, the author, a professor of Historical Sciences of the Copernicus University in Torun, Poland ( e-mail kstn@his.uni.torun.pl ) polemizes with totally unfounded Russian claims and accusations. Definitely, there were no "death camps" in Poland for Soviet Pows - the myth created by White Russian press in Poland (sic!) still in 1921.

Strangely, there were no trials of alleged Polish perpetrators after 1945 in communist Poland. Strangely, there was no monument erected after 1945 neither in Tuchola (alleged "death camp") nor in other sites, housing interned Red Army soldiers (Strzalkowo, Dabie/Cracow, Pikulice/Przemysl, Wadowice) - and communists had forty four years to do it.

Regards...

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Post by Rarog » 12 Aug 2004 08:23

yerbamatt wrote:Hello everybody,

Shortly, the author, a professor of Historical Sciences of the Copernicus University in Torun, Poland ( e-mail kstn@his.uni.torun.pl ) polemizes with totally unfounded Russian claims and accusations. Definitely, there were no "death camps" in Poland for Soviet Pows - the myth created by White Russian press in Poland (sic!) still in 1921.
Acc. to Polish documents only in Tuchola 22 000 Soviet POWs died.
Информируя руководство военного министерства 1 февраля 1922 г. о побегах военнопленных, начальник 2-го отдела Генштаба польской армии полковник И.Матушевский писал: "Эти побеги вызваны условиями, в которых находятся коммунисты и интернированные (отсутствие топлива, белья и одежды, плохое питание, а также долгое ожидание выезда в Россию). Особенно прославился лагерь в Тухоли, который интернированные называют "лагерем смерти" (в этом лагере умерло около 22 000 пленных красноармейцев)". Ужасна приводимая в донесении цифра: "умерло около 22.000" в одном только лагере!
Reporting to heads of the Military ministry on Feb. the 1st about escapes of the POWs, the head of the second department of the HQ of the Polish Army colonel I. Matyshevski was wrote: "Those escapes are determined by conditions of living of the communists and interned (?) persons (absence of fuel, underware, clothes, bad nutrition, long awating for deportation to Russia). Especially famous is the Tuhola camp, whish is known among interned (?) persons as a "death camp". The figure given in the report is terrific: "22.000 died" only in one camp!
Массовые расстрелы российских пленных в 1919-1920 гг. - это не пропагандистская выдумка, как стремятся представить дело некоторые польские СМИ. На сей счет имеются свидетельства самих поляков. Так, А.Велевейский в популярной "Газете выборчей" (от 23 февраля 1994 г.) писал о приказах генерала Сикорского (будущего премьера) расстрелять из пулеметов 300 российских военнопленных, а также генерала Пясецкого не брать живыми в плен российских солдат. Есть информация и о других подобных случаях.
Mass shootings of the Russian POWs in 1919-1920 is not a propaganda fairy tale, as insist certain Polish mass media agencies. Evidences by Poles themselves are available on the matter. For example, A. Veleveiski in his populat "Gazete vyborchei" (?) (on Feb. the 23rd 1994) wrote about orders of general Sikorski (future Polish Prime-Minister) to shoot from machine guns 300 Russian POWs, and also about orders of general Pyasezki to not capture Russian soldiers alive. Other information about similar other cases is available.
Strangely, there were no trials of alleged Polish perpetrators after 1945 in communist Poland. Strangely, there was no monument erected after 1945 neither in Tuchola (alleged "death camp") nor in other sites, housing interned Red Army soldiers (Strzalkowo, Dabie/Cracow, Pikulice/Przemysl, Wadowice) - and communists had forty four years to do it.
Nothing strange here. The operation was a great fault of the Soviets and there was no need to draw the attention to it. More, it could damage Soviet-Polish relations in the times when Poland was considered as an ally. Now when things are different I'm looking forward to erection of the monuments to save the memory of victims of Polish brutality.

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Post by szopen » 12 Aug 2004 12:40

Rarog post-1945 Communist did everything to find anything which would put pre-1939 government in bad light.

Now, there are two problems here, which you seemingly don't understand

1) Whether indeed 60.000 soviet PoWs died in Polish captivity

2) Whether this was result of Polish policy and mass-shooting

ad 1) It is possible. The comissions visiting camps were reporting that the situation there was tragic: there were serious shortages in food and medicines.

ad 2) It seems that Sikorsky order you quote exist only in hot imagination of some Russian nationalist and appeared as reaction for officially admitting guilt for Katyn.

The situation in post Soviet-Polish war 1919-1921 was tragic. You have to remember that Poland was constantly fighting - both with Soviets who started the war in 1919, but also with Ukrainians, Czechs, Germans etc. All of that was after WWI were front was going mainly by Polish lands and which left thousands of deaths and huge material losses. There were really serious shortages in food and it seems probably that, when having problems with providing food for own soidiers, Soviet PoWs would be in the end in the queue. So it is possible that 50-60.000 of them died as result of Polish captivity - but not as result of polish policy, but rather as result of serious lack in competence in authorities responsible for maintaining the camps.

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Fredd
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Re: Soviet POWs in Polish death camps

Post by Fredd » 12 Aug 2004 13:26

Rarog wrote: Out of 120-130 thousand Soviet POWs 69.000 were re-patriated, 6 thousands decided to saty in Poland, died in captivity 50-60 thousands.
Supposing these BSs had been true for a moment. After being inhumanely treated, after they saw they comrades were shot 6.000 of them decided to stay in Poland. How strange - they prefered to stay in the country that mistreated them instead to came back to a fatherland. :lol: :lol: :lol:

BTW in other thread you wrote
Rarog wrote:It's still debatable. What is not debatable is that 75 000 Soviet POWs were starved to death in Polish death camps within a year.
My suggestion is make up your mind because it seems that so-called victims are multiplying in your imagination like bunnies :lol:

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Post by Rarog » 12 Aug 2004 13:49

Supposing these BSs had been true for a moment. After being inhumanely treated, after they saw they comrades were shot 6.000 of them decided to stay in Poland. How strange - they prefered to stay in the country that mistreated them instead to came back to a fatherland.
Well, are you going to question that several million Soviet POWs perished in the German death camps? And still many chose to fight Comunism.

So please don't post such BS anymore. Thank you.
My suggestion is make up your mind because it seems that so-called victims are multiplying in your imagination like bunnies
And don't joke about the deads, retard.

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Post by Mostowka » 12 Aug 2004 13:57

Rarog,

I suggest that you keep your tone civil and instead try to prove you point in the best possible way. If there was mass starving due to malnutrition and abuse by the Poles then it is an interesting topic to discuss, obviously you entered this discussion with your opinions and beliefs allready closed for discussion. If you can´t take criticism then simply don´t post !

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