A finn selected Ingrians to Natzweiler !

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Tero
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Post by Tero » 05 Sep 2004 12:27

By Topspeed
I am sure Vilho Helanen was displaced after IKL/AKS was banned in Finland.
I'm referring to his military career (as per the link provided). He served as an intelligence officer between 1941 and 1943.

Why 1943 and not 1944 ?
I think Ingrians like all folks who fought in the finnish ranks from the tribes of the german conquered areas had the same destiny. Officers killed on the border and rest sent to Siberia for hard labour for a certain period. Luckily some escaped to Sweden before deportation. I also wonder why these deportations have not been studied more closely, but these 1941-1944 things are under scrutiny ?
Selective myopia and attention to largely irrelevant details in search for politically motivated alternate truth. After all, what was the truth back then can not possibly apply today, right ?

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Topspeed
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Post by Topspeed » 05 Sep 2004 12:52

Tero wrote: I'm referring to his military career (as per the link provided). He served as an intelligence officer between 1941 and 1943.

Why 1943 and not 1944 ?
Yes I think we just did found our own " doctor Mengele ". He may have well been behind the excange of POWs between Finland and Germany. I think it would be natural that germany gave us captured finns without an exchange, but Helanen may have agreed with SS that the jews and some communists were handed to germans accordingly. Then it would start to fill the measures of a war crime, but there is no proof to that. I recall reading that Kekkonen hated IKL and Vilho Helanen hated minister Kekkonen. It could also be just an assumption. Certainly an officer who is working closely with SS is more influenced by their ideologies than a fellow in Finland minding his own business. Helanen was easy to be misplaced by Kekkonen when it was obvious that war will be lost and all co-operators with nazies be judged. Incidently also Heinrich Himmler acted like this at the end of 1944; he wanted to hide all evidence of death camps ever existed. In this thinking Helanen was just a pansy. He was put to the job just because he was pro AKS and was a known nationalist. Even in a democratic system there is easy to make big mistakes and sometimes innocent suffer. Either way there is no proof.

regards,

Juke T

JariL
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Post by JariL » 06 Sep 2004 10:55

Hi,

Co-operation between Germans and Finns in administrative level was very active throughout the war. Finns certainly got to know about the concentration camps by the spring of 1942, if not sooner. It has already been known that some Finnish doctors used information that came from experiments made in KZ and that some of them had at some stage visited some of the test laboratories and possibly been present with experiments with human beings. So far there is no evidence of active participation though.

With the Ingrians as long as Germans desided to treat the elders badly Finns did not commit any crime, not even Helanen. His behaviour was inhumane and his words even more so. But how different is our emigration policy today? I don't remember many people who have suggested that we should take elders and crippeled but many have wanted to fix the population problem by "importing" people that can take jobs directly. If this is so today, it was more so back then when the situation was very tight. The only difference today is that we say "no thanks" to UN and alike, not the SS. Guess which of the two sells better?

The picture will change totally if Helanen was the initiator. If he was the one who actively chose life or death, then we have a war criminal.

Similar choices were made when the Ingrians had to be returned to Soviet Union. Some policemen, soldiers and civilians closed their eyes others did not.


Regards,


Jari

JariL
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Typo above

Post by JariL » 06 Sep 2004 11:09

Made a typo above. "But how different is our emigration policy today?" should have been "But how different is our immigration policy today?"

Regards,

Jari

Tero
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Post by Tero » 06 Sep 2004 13:14

By JariL
Co-operation between Germans and Finns in administrative level was very active throughout the war. Finns certainly got to know about the concentration camps by the spring of 1942, if not sooner.
A note: the entire world knew about the Nazi KZ's soon after 1933. They were after all openly operational already before the war.
It has already been known that some Finnish doctors used information that came from experiments made in KZ and that some of them had at some stage visited some of the test laboratories and possibly been present with experiments with human beings. So far there is no evidence of active participation though.
The results of these experiments were widely published in the medical field IIRC.
With the Ingrians as long as Germans desided to treat the elders badly Finns did not commit any crime, not even Helanen. His behaviour was inhumane and his words even more so. But how different is our emigration policy today? I don't remember many people who have suggested that we should take elders and crippeled but many have wanted to fix the population problem by "importing" people that can take jobs directly. If this is so today, it was more so back then when the situation was very tight. The only difference today is that we say "no thanks" to UN and alike, not the SS. Guess which of the two sells better?

The picture will change totally if Helanen was the initiator. If he was the one who actively chose life or death, then we have a war criminal.

Similar choices were made when the Ingrians had to be returned to Soviet Union. Some policemen, soldiers and civilians closed their eyes others did not.
So which is the worst war crime the alledged Finnish one during the war of the actual Finnish/Soviet one when the Ingrians were repatriated ?

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Topspeed
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Post by Topspeed » 06 Sep 2004 14:27

In " Suomen Kuvalehti "magazine there was a story about Ingrians 54 000+ was their number who were returned to USSR after the war.

There is a difference between a death camp and a KZ-lager. As far as I know the systematic killing was not known to great public, but after that tv program I got to know that at least Latvia/Estonia camps apparently german einsatzgrupp did commit killings maybe on soviet communists and those convictions were based on peoples testimonies. This was indicated by a local prison guard who said that they had to leave the camp for during these purges. No finns were involved with these actions.

I have to reframe the topic since Helanen was the only finn around what we know of.

JT
Last edited by Topspeed on 06 Sep 2004 15:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Earldor
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Post by Earldor » 06 Sep 2004 14:52

Topspeed wrote: There is a difference between a death camp and a KZ-lager. As far as I know the systematic killing was not known to great public, but after that tv program I got to know that at least Latvia/Estonia camps apparently german einsatzgrupp did commit killings maybe on soviet communists and those were based on peoples testimonies. This was indicated by a local prison guard who said that they had to leave the camp for during these purges. No finns were involved with these actions.

I have to reframe the topic since Helanen was the only finn around what we know of.
Can I make a suggestion, Juke? And I hope I don't offend you, but please grab a book once in a while and read about the subjects you're interested in, or at least do a search in the forum and the web before making one of your 11 to 12 postings per day. 8O

I'm sorry to be so patronizing, but the Forum is not here solely to educate you or to glorify Finns. :oops:

All the best

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Topspeed
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Post by Topspeed » 06 Sep 2004 15:28

Okay Ealdor,

I confess I am somehow addicted to this site now for about two months. Previously I have been only interested about aeroplanes, but somehow these misconceptions about finns and estonians really have grapped me deep and it is somehow astonishing that the same kinda action keeps going.

I don't read much history. Maybe I should and I could come up with a new really deep and intelligent comments. But when I see already here how erratic just the names of the books are and writers being radical communists I lost all interest whatsoever to do it. I have read twice all aviation books available.

What would you suggest that I read that isn't certainly pure bullshit ? Or are you of the opinion any reading is good ? Political history, haplogroups, science, navajo/finnish dna-similarities ?

regards,

Juke T :roll:

JariL
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Post by JariL » 07 Sep 2004 10:58

Hi Tero,

What I meant with knowing about the KZ was not knowing that they existed but about the extermination program in general. KZ was not a secret in Germany, on the contrary the authorities wanted people to know from the beginning that the threat existed. The extermination program the authorities tried to keep secret.

With the medical results I meant results that were acquired before they were published in any medical paper. But as already stated above so far there has been no evidence of active participation in the experiments apart of some visits to the laboratories during tests.


Regards,

Jari

michael mills
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Post by michael mills » 07 Sep 2004 13:44

Could someone please tell the rest of us in this forum what this is all about. After all, it is not supposed to be a place for Finns to have a dialogue with themselves, but for the posting of material that is informative for all readers.

So far, I have gathered that at some stage there was a plan to resettle ethnic Ingrians from German-occupied areas to Finland. Was this a German initiative, in order to free land for German settlement? Or was it a Finnish initiative, to bring a people related to the Finns out of Soviet territory? Was it mutually agreed between the German and Finnish Governments? Was there some sort of selection process, to determine who was eligible for resettlement in Finland? Who made the decisions?

A little background on what this is all about would be very welcome. Something other than a reference to a television program would be helpful.

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Topspeed
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Post by Topspeed » 07 Sep 2004 17:01

JariL wrote: I don't remember many people who have suggested that we should take elders and crippeled but many have wanted to fix the population problem by "importing" people that can take jobs directly. If this is so today, it was more so back then when the situation was very tight. The only difference today is that we say "no thanks" to UN and alike, not the SS.
Jari,

Well I don't know what your agenda is, but if I look around I see a lot of africans in hyper modern wheelchairs and more without it. I don't think many of them work anyway. They are here waiting for a change in their countrys political situation. I think there is a limit how many can we really accomodate with modern cars and systems that those crippled need badly ( a nurse for each and so on ). Houses have to have special systems too ( escalators and ramps ). I think we are doing our best. I know there are several cases were asylym was not given. Do you think we should take only seriously injured to Finland ?

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Sorry Mills I gotta get some solid fact about Ingrians and Ingermanlands situation. I think I will visit a library soon.

JT

JariL
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Post by JariL » 08 Sep 2004 07:53

Hi Michael,

The original question was about an aledged war crime committed by Viljo Helanen. The background was simply that when Germans reached the outskirts of Leningrad they evacuated the civilian population form the proximity of the front. Among these people were Ingrians that still back then spoke a language very similar to Finnish. At some point someone got the idea of shipping them over to Finland in order to aliviate the cronical shortage of labour force especially in the agriculture. Other motivations were also involved like brotherhood with the Ingrians and most likely also an idea to settle the Ingrians to East-Karelia after the war.

Now in a Finnish TV program it was claimed that Vilho Helanen in official capacity selected or rather did not select a number of elderly Ingrians to be sent to Finland. These people eventually ended up into concentration camp. And thats where it started from.

The other things dicussed here were references to eqaully vague allegations made in earlier TV programs or newspaper articles on dubious co-operation between Germans and Finns in other fields. So far the incriminating material has in my opinion been very thin but the issue is certainly worth investigating.

A partial explanation to the interest in the dark side of the war years may be found in Finnish history of 1960's and 1970's when Soviet Unions influence in Finland reached its peak and communist/leftist youth movement was very strong. Recently many of the prominent activists of those days, many of whom have risen to good positions in todays Finland, have been forced to look into the mirror and reflect their youth. At the same time the deeds of their parents, that were practically declared criminal in 1960's and 70's have gained the respect of especially the youth of today. In a way the parents of the activist generation and their own children have made a pact. I think that there still exists an "undercurrent" in the minds of the activists that need to prove that the war generation had to do something wrong. Otherwise their deeds will rise to such hights that it is impossible to "compete" with them.

Best regards,

JariL

Tapani K.
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Post by Tapani K. » 08 Sep 2004 09:48

JariL wrote: Among these people were Ingrians that still back then spoke a language very similar to Finnish.
A small correction: these people did indeed speak Finnish. Their ancestors had moved from Finland in the 16th and 17th centuries and they had kept their language and Lutheran faith. The village teachers and priests had often been educated in Finnish schools and seminaries so the cultural and linguistic link between Finland and Ingermanland (or Ingria) until the border between Soviet Russian and Finland was closed after the WWI. It was only the repressions of Stalin era and the post-WW2 era that caused the Russian language to garadually win ground.

BTW, in the Soviet passports Ingrians were marked as "Finnish". After the WW2 this meant roughly the same as "fascist" in the eyes of the Soviet officials. In Finnish, too, they have often been called by the name "inkerinsuomalaiset", i.e. "Ingermanland Finns" or "Ingria Finns".

regards,
Tapani K.

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Harri
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Post by Harri » 08 Sep 2004 17:09

Tapani K. wrote:A small correction: these people did indeed speak Finnish. .... It was only the repressions of Stalin era and the post-WW2 era that caused the Russian language to garadually win ground.
Another small correction: only older Ingrian people who had been in Finnish language schools or lived in solely "Finnish" villages spoke fluent Finnish. Finnish language education was banned in the 1930's in USSR after which all Ingrians had to study with Russians and in Russian language. Gradually many younger Ingrians forgot Finnish language and used only Russian. For example most young soldiers of Ingrian Separate Battalion 6 (Er.P 6) spoke very weak Finnish which was a surprise to Finns.
Tapani K. wrote:BTW, in the Soviet passports Ingrians were marked as "Finnish".
That is correct. Many people did hide their true nationality and turned to "Russians" taking a Russian surname and forgetting their native language.

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I have always thought that Ingrians were not in concentration camps in German occupied areas. So, is there some kind of misunderstanding? Where these Ingrians Helanen "selected" already in such camps or were they just gathered together (to some kinds of ghettos)? Why Germans would have destroyed old Ingrians in their KZ camps? I think Helanen's purpose was to check that known Communists or former Finnish Reds are not coming to Finland. They were not needed and were left to German hands. It is also likely their way led to KZ camps, but I don't understand why the others would have been sent to these? Or did Germans kill all old people who were not native Germans?

I think Helanen did exactly the same Finnish authorities do today when they select refugees to Finland but his selecting basis may have not been humanitary reasons only (like they should be today).

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Topspeed
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Post by Topspeed » 08 Sep 2004 17:33

Harri,

Helanen choose 400 to go to Finland and 200 to KZ-camps in Natzwailer. That was the whole point of the program and this topic. For some reason or an other 600 Ingrians were in a camp possibly because they were POWs of RKKA. Obviously 60 000 of them weren't, because that amount were in Finland all in all.

Why did they back then think of resettling them to eastern Karelia as a buffer zone is unclear. Perhaps it was russofobia back then. Why were they cleared from Leningrad ( st. Petersburg ) is possibly due to the fact of Generalplan Ost and finns wanted finnish originated people to Finland and not into future 3rd Reich or under a struggle between USSR and 3rd Reich. By sommer 1943 also all finnish SS troopers ( who fought as far as in Caucasus ) were back in ranks fighting in Finland. I think Mannerheim wanted to gather as many troopers as possible to defend Finland and not 3rd Reich.


rgrds,

Juke

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