Motivation for the invasion of Poland and western Europe?

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MacX
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Motivation for the invasion of Poland and western Europe?

Post by MacX » 19 Sep 2004 11:10

I was wondering, how the Germans could have believed even at the end of the war that they were right in doing an offensive war. There must have been a reason Hitler told the folk in order to feel correct doing this.
What did Hitler tell them that made so many people willingly attack a nation, Poland at first, and then Western Europe?
I don't belief it would have been connected to the treaty of Versailles any longer...

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Post by Obserwator » 19 Sep 2004 20:08

What did Hitler tell them that made so many people willingly attack a nation, Poland at first, and then Western Europe?

Remember that Hitler was a result of several tendencies present in German culture and politics.In fact you might be surprised to learn that Weimar Republic itself wanted to destroy Poland.
The idea of Lebensraum was born in XIX, Hitler just took it up.Also Poles and other nations were generaly viewed as inferior to Germans, and German state waged a de facto ethnic cleansing campaign towards its Polish citizens in XIX century(Kulturkampf)

“Poland’s existence is intolerable and incompatible with the essential conditions of Germany’s life. Poland must go and will go - as a result of her own internal weaknesses and of action by Russia - with our aid. . . . . The obliteration of Poland must be one of the fundamental drives of German policy . . . . . (and) is attainable by means of, and with the help of, Russia.”

- General von Seeckt, responsible for foreign policy in the Weimar Republic of Germany, writing in 1922.

Interesting isn't it ?
You can also read this :
http://www.kdhs.org.uk/history/articles/stresemann.htm
In practice, this meant that Germany would not give up what it saw as its legitimate claims to revision of the treaty: the Polish frontier, union with Austria, colonies. However, Stresemann knew that the prospect of achieving these goals peacefully was remote. He also became increasingly sceptical about union with Austria (which would change the balance of German politics by adding to it substantial numbers of Socialist and Catholic voters) and the value of colonies which were already beginning to challenge European rule. The Polish frontier remained a serious problem. Stresemann was not prepared to give up the demand for the return of Danzig (a German port made a `Free City' under the League of Nations by the Treaty) and the northern half of the Polish `corridor' to the sea which separated East Prussia from the rest of Germany. He regarded the frontier as the worst mistake of the Treaty and a threat to peace. But he had no realistic way of changing it. In 1925 he suggested that if Germany first established good relations with Britain and France one day peaceful revision might be possible, perhaps as a result of Polish economic collapse or of Soviet pressure for revision of Poland's eastern frontier. But by the end of his life he seems to have accepted the ideas of his envoy in Warsaw, Rauscher, who recommended a policy of detente and trade in the hope that eventually Poland's economic dependence on Germany might make frontier revision possible. In effect this meant putting the issue on ice.





What was the purpose, then, of Germany's secret re-armament in cooperation with the Soviet Union, which had started unofficially in the early 1920s but was continued with cabinet approval after 1927? Different groups had different ideas: General von Seeckt thought in terms of a war of revenge against France; Colonel von Blomberg, later to be Hitler's war minister, thought Germany should prepare for an offensive against Poland. But in the 1920s the priority was defensive. A war game in 1927 showed that Germany would be unable to defend East Prussia from Polish attack, even if France remained neutral. The defence minister General Groener persuaded the cabinet that rearmament beyond the limits imposed at Versailles was necessary
Last edited by Obserwator on 19 Sep 2004 20:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by maxxx » 19 Sep 2004 20:29

Take the power of a system like the nazis over the access to truth by newspaper or radio, the indoctrination at school, at work, by the little blockleader in your house and- here you go- 99% pro....

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Post by Nick_since_1985 » 19 Sep 2004 20:30

Simple one England and France decleared war on Germany and not vica versa.

Poland had been for centuries German, after WW1 the became independant...
They wanted it back ==> Logic is it not? :?

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Post by Obserwator » 19 Sep 2004 20:41

Poland had been for centuries German, after WW1 the became independant

Centuries ? Hardly-certain areas of Poland were under German occupation true but only for a short time-in fact Duchy of Posen was in Prussian hands since 1793 till 1806.After 1815 Prussian had taken over again but even then the area enjoyed autonomy for a certain period and it was incorporated to Germany only in 1867
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Poznan
http://www.poznanczyk.com/wxp.html
In 1848 after a rebelion certain areas have been transfered to Prussia.
You can base your claim on any of those dates, none will give you centuries of German occupation...

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Post by Nick_since_1985 » 19 Sep 2004 22:09

Under Germany's control wasn't entirely correct true, this is beacause Germany as we know it, doesn't excist very long.

What I meant was ==> Under German influence, esspecially Prussia. You can look this upp in certain hisory books. Offcourse not every piece of Poland but the biggest part was...

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Post by Obserwator » 19 Sep 2004 22:18

Under German influence, esspecially Prussia

Up to 17century Prussia was a fief of Poland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussia


Ducal Prussia was a dependency of the Kingdom of Poland until 1660, and Royal Prussia remained a part of Poland until 1772.

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Post by Nick_since_1985 » 19 Sep 2004 22:36

Hey I understand your're from Poland and all, and you feel a bit offended. No problem think of it what you want, but remember it's not the first time in history that certain populations or nations where ruled by certain minoryti's even if the original population lived there for age's.

I think you're forgetting that the 'Germans' or Germania was there before Julius Ceasar was born...

What are nations and borders have to do with this???

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Post by Liluh » 19 Sep 2004 22:56

Nick_since_1985 wrote:Simple one England and France decleared war on Germany and not vica versa.

Poland had been for centuries German, after WW1 the became independant...
They wanted it back ==> Logic is it not? :?


Rather not logic really. Just to put it togheter. Germany (well, Prussia, but isn`t it the same)lost some land after rough 100 years of keeping control over that area , but they didn`t care much about big areas like Poznan/Posen, they were rather pinched by loosing whole industrial and mining part of Silesia, and having Gdansk/Danzing as independent city under Polish supervision. I`d say that Germans wanted to restore an "empire", breake the Versal treaty and play first role in the big world policy. Of course, the fact that a good goal helped to cease horrible economical crissis in Weimar Republic is another thing. Revange - that`s more like it. To be precise, Hitler wanted to make France and UK to kneel, Poland was just a sort of decoy, only later after signing allience with previously mentioned countries it became dangerous to leave Poland alone
while attacking France. There were many reasons for why it went the way it was, but of course Italy and Japanese have also nice part in initiating world war.

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Post by Obserwator » 19 Sep 2004 23:18

No problem think of it what you want, but remember it's not the first time in history that certain populations or nations where ruled by certain minoryti's even if the original population lived there for age's.

You could you explain what do you mean ?
To be precise, Hitler wanted to make France and UK to kneel, Poland was just a sort of decoy

Of course Hitler wanted also to murder Jews and considered Poles to be subhumans-so sooner or later he would attack Poland.
Not to forget that he had his sight also for USSR and Poland was in his way.

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Post by Nick_since_1985 » 19 Sep 2004 23:48

"germania" reached to poland?



The Germanic people coverd a large portion of Northren Europe and Scandinavia, this is a well know fact.

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Post by maxxx » 20 Sep 2004 00:17

have you any source for this "well known fact" that germans were in pre 1945 poland as early as in Ceasar´s time?

Or maybe our polish members know about this?

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Post by Obserwator » 20 Sep 2004 00:25

The Germanic people coverd a large portion of Northren Europe and Scandinavia, this is a well know fact.

And ? Please could explain what are trying to imply ?
BTW-Poles settled themselfs as far as Berlin before Germans-should we then demand Berlin to be ours again ?
BTW2-Prussia was settled by Prussians a tribe of people different then Germans who slaughtered them.

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Post by maxxx » 20 Sep 2004 00:34

that´s what i meant when i asked if nick knew what kind of people the pruzzens have been :roll:

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yo yo

Post by Udet » 20 Sep 2004 06:20

"Preferible una marcha forzada con Crátero a un banquete con Hefestión."

Gentlemen, give me a break here.

It´s been a good deal of time since I learned Adolf Hitler was not the kind of individual who demanded "the immediate, prompt and utter destruction of a specific nation", as it has been commonly depicted.

"I hereby order Poland shall immediately cease to exist as independent nation, its cities shall be razed to the ground, and each one of the sub-humans it has an inhabitants shall be as well eliminated". :P

Such comments do not withstand the minimun of the scrutinies.

As any politician and statesman, he had interests to pursue, and would certainly proceed on to achieve such interests. He had his wit, and had it deployed accordingly, for good and for bad.

Yes, we know atrocities were committed. Dare you to name one single war where such actions did not happen.

Hitler´s fundamental aim was to wage war against the USSR. Period.

Poland stood in the middle. The East Prussia issue. The Reich and the USSR had their Molotov-Ribentrop pact, and the rest is history.

Yet, you launch all your rage solely upon the Germans, but curiously say nothing about the soviet attack against Poland.

You (indirectly) continue to depict Hitler as an individual who exploded cursing and issuing those apocalyptical orders everytime any of his wishes would not be immediately granted.

No, my dear forum members, no. It is not that simple. To throw all the eggs and tomatoes on just one individual is a comfortable yet poor resource. It is actually quite more complex.

Hitler´s bloodlust was boundless and senseless? Then why, even when his army was achieving a total victory in France, he did not order the destruction of Paris? Because he had a chart on his wall in the Reichstag, where "classifications" of humans and sub-humans were illustrated, and such chart showed the French did qualify as "Humans", therefore not deserving the destruction of their cities?

Did he order the destruction of the capitals of Belgium, Netherlands and Denmark? Norway?

Warsaw was bombed by the Luftwaffe during the 1939 campaign, not to satisfy Hitler´s "fetish" towards blood, but simply to reduce the garrison of the Polish Army located in the capital.

And please honeys, do not divert this by saying I am here to white-wash Hitler. Nah, nah. Not at all. Not the case. Save it, it will not work with me. 8)

Finally, a famous Luftwaffe experte, happened to have Polish heritage, I am referring to Hauptmann Alfred Grislawski. Was he considered a "sub.human" worth the exception? :lol:

Grislawski received the promotions and awards of the Reich for his deeds as a fighter pilot. An excellent pilot he was. Passed away hardly a year ago.
Last edited by Udet on 20 Sep 2004 06:24, edited 1 time in total.

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