Chinese and Japanese uniforms

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Lawrence
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Chinese and Japanese uniforms

Post by Lawrence » 26 Sep 2004 23:11

I've noticed that many Chinese KMT uniforms look very similar to their Japanese counterparts.


Chinese Kuomintang:

Image

Imperial Japanese Army

Image

The older M90 Japanese uniform had the rank bars on the shoulder, however, the M98 uniform displayed them on the collar, as shown above. Does anyone know which came first? The Chinese or Japanese style? Did either one copy the other? Regards!

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Stu-hun
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Post by Stu-hun » 27 Sep 2004 05:02

Not sure about the Japanese uniforms, but many Chinese soldiers wore German outfits almost identical to the ones Germans wore. Funny thing is, the Japanese were on the Germans side, and they were fighting the Chinese 8)

Regards,

Stu

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ancientcoins
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Post by ancientcoins » 28 Sep 2004 17:36

I only know that before Jul 7 1937,there are many German instructors in China to guide the Chinese Kuomintang army.And China had imported so many German military equipments such as Mauser K98 rifles,LeFH18 howitzers,PzKpfw Is,Sd.Kfz.222 armored reconnaissance vehicles and German helmets(M-35?).The army equipped with German equipments were considered as the elite army in Chinese Kuomintang army during the beginning of the anti-Japanese war(after receiving help from the United States,the army equipped with pure American equipments had also been considered as elite)
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Jeremy Chan
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Post by Jeremy Chan » 30 Sep 2004 05:19

To explain Stu-hun's and Kingsley's questions, the Chinese and Japanese militaries had long been trained by Western powers since the late 19th century and as such, would long have been introduced to, and adopted, Western military traditions and influences. This was done with the Chinese and Japanese retaining as much of their own traditions along with Western ones, so as not to lose them altogether. Germany, too, had been responsible for training the Chinese militaries for a long time, back to the Kaiser's era. As such, China's military was modelled rather along German lines, but it was far from a carbon copy of Germany's military. That explained the Germanic apperaeance of many Chinese troops. As ancientcoins explained, many German equipment had also been adopted, and Mauser C96's and Lugers for example were a great favourite among Chinese soldiers and warlords.
As to Kingsley's uniform question, with Western-influenced uniform styles, the Chinese and Japanese sought to retain many traditional, or Oriental clothing styles, along with newer Western types. For example, KMT uniforms were quite reminescent of the traditional Chinese tunic, with a stand-up collar or high stand-and-fall collar. As such, you'd notice that by 1944, the Chinese navy or air force didn't have an open-collar uniform type with shirt and tie, and others did.
With the rank patches, they too were traditional, and I guess neither copied each other. You may notice that the rank patches would be worn on either the collar or shoulders, the conventional shoulder straps not being used.
Cheers!

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Lawrence
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Post by Lawrence » 03 Oct 2004 22:58

I appreciate the responses from all of you. So Jeremy, I was wondering; I've seen very, very old footage of Chinese uniforms with their rank bars displayed on their shoulders. However, these were often Armies controlled by Warlords, rather than the KMT. Perhaps the early Chinese uniforms were influenced by the Imperial Japanese Army's khaki uniform which came out in 1904?

Also, you're saying that neither the Japanese or Chinese really copied eachother when designing the two uniforms I displayed above? Do you have any idea when the closed neck KMT uniform came out? The Japanese and Chinese differed specifically with their caps. The Japanese field cap and the Chinese field caps were very different in appearence from one another. However, their tunics were very similar with their uniform rank tabs matching; except the Japanese used stars while the Chinese used triangles.

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Post by Goldfish » 03 Oct 2004 23:50

Japanese and Chinese uniforms (for troops south of the Yellow River) were almost identical in the 1920's and early thirties and were probably influenced by the Japanese, with high collars and a similar peaked cap. Troops north of the Yellow River usually wore blue padded cotton uniforms and fur caps. After 1928, most Chinese soldiers had a "stand and fall" collar instead of the stiff high collars, but the high stiff collars were popular for high-ranking officers, including Chiang Kai-Shek, for the duration of the war. The Japanese uniform after 1930 (TYpe 90) was very different from the Chinese uniform with its high stiff collars, "swallowtail" collar insignia, and interior tunic pockets (as opposed to the exterior pleated pockets of the Chinese). The later Type 98 (1938) Army uniform adopted an open collar and more Chinese-looking insignia, but retained the interior pockets. The Chinese winter padded uniforms were very different from the Japanese as well as headgear, with the Chinese cap resembling the German M-43 and the Japanese with their peaked forage cap. Chinese uniforms were brown, blue, or occasionally khaki, while Japanese uniforms were mostly khaki.

My understanding on influence is that Japanese uniforms had been influenced first by the French, then the Prussians after 1870. Beginning in the Taisho era (about 1910), however, evolution was mostly domestic. Chinese uniforms were a hodge podge of types throughout the 1911-1949 period, especially in headgear, but the early mainstream Imperial (1900-1911) and warlord (1911-1928) uniforms, as well as early Guomindang, were heavily influenced by Japan. Starting in 1928, however, he Chinese began moving away from Japanese models and towards German models, which they kept until the end of the Civil War. Various troops, depending on where they were, wore Freench-style or Russian-style uniforms, helmets, and equipment.

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Post by Jeremy Chan » 09 Oct 2004 04:27

Kingsley wrote:I appreciate the responses from all of you. So Jeremy, I was wondering; I've seen very, very old footage of Chinese uniforms with their rank bars displayed on their shoulders. However, these were often Armies controlled by Warlords, rather than the KMT. Perhaps the early Chinese uniforms were influenced by the Imperial Japanese Army's khaki uniform which came out in 1904?

Also, you're saying that neither the Japanese or Chinese really copied eachother when designing the two uniforms I displayed above? Do you have any idea when the closed neck KMT uniform came out? The Japanese and Chinese differed specifically with their caps. The Japanese field cap and the Chinese field caps were very different in appearence from one another. However, their tunics were very similar with their uniform rank tabs matching; except the Japanese used stars while the Chinese used triangles.

Kingsley, from what I know, the Japanese khaki uniforms were introduced after WW1. Prior to that, they used a dark blue. The Chinese had used stand-up collars from the early 1900s especially on the dress- and full ceremonial uniforms. Later on, the KMT had used uniforms with a high stand-and-fall collar (with a 3-set hook-and-eye closure) right from the beginning, in conjunction with the stand-up collar unioforms. As for the rank bars, the Chinese had first introduced them, since earlier in the century, the Japanese had used the plaited-cord shoulder strap on their uniforms. The Japanese had used ranks bars on the collars of the tunics only from the late '30s; prior to that they were on used on the shoulders, with swallow-tail collar patches displaying the regimental number.
Remember, both countries had the similar sources in influenceing their uniforms.
Cheers,
Jeremy

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Post by georgecl » 09 Oct 2004 05:54

Heres a picture of a Chinese officer Captian approx 1925 or so..


George L
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Post by Artie Bucco » 13 Oct 2004 05:14

ancientcoins wrote:I only know that before Jul 7 1937,there are many German instructors in China to guide the Chinese Kuomintang army.And China had imported so many German military equipments such as Mauser K98 rifles,LeFH18 howitzers,PzKpfw Is,Sd.Kfz.222 armored reconnaissance vehicles and German helmets(M-35?).The army equipped with German equipments were considered as the elite army in Chinese Kuomintang army during the beginning of the anti-Japanese war(after receiving help from the United States,the army equipped with pure American equipments had also been considered as elite)


In the second picture what pistol is that? Is it a Browning M 1900?

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About the similarity of the uniforms

Post by Lavie » 07 Dec 2004 01:40

Hello, I would like to give you my point of view about that fact that Japanese or Guomintang soldiers had similarities around the 30:

I think that it shouldn't be a only a question of dresses and uniforms.

We have to see that the main objective of Chiang Kai Shek was to battle and eradicate in the most extreme manner the communists. And during that time, he and his armies, even trained by the germans (whom I strongly suspect a strong connections as well as may be political views...see the man called XuYongchang) and could not fight for real. I am stressing the possible military strategy that CKS (Chiang Kai Shek) may did later:

After 1934, aided by Nazi Germany, Chiang Kai Shek won temporarily against the Chinese communists. But his plans were truly to set up a NEW GOVERNMENT somewhere as the Germans and Italians planned in Europe. The lebendaum was in fact the island of Taiwan. The genocide of NANKIN was a way to proclaim a supremacy of independance against the Chinese form MAINLAND. And may be , but I am 80 % sure , the Japanese "aided" CKS to do the bad job. That is why all 4 of them: Mussolini, Hitler, Hirohito and Chiang Kai Shek did a Mafia corrupted war crime planetary zone.

The resemblance of the tunics and dresses were a mean for ALL OF THE 4 to establish a BOND by the BLOOD. Finally I think that the tunics resemblances the axis allied codes of dress.( See the Cairo confrence pic...The Kuomintang officer with a European axis comrade whom the one gave a bad look to that US general.)

And last but not least: NANKING GENOCODE by the Japanese was probably orchestrated by CKS to say: " NOW LEAVE US ALONE CHINESE FROM MAINLAND!. We will found a new government: Guomintang in TAIWAN..."

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About the chinese soldier

Post by Lavie » 07 Dec 2004 01:58

I would like to point out that the reason GUO officers did extreme torture was a way to repell almost 5 Centuries of invasions from the mongols.

His face is the result of the sincere distgust from every thing not civilized. I guess most chinese todays repel every men and women showing a sense of barbary or traits from uncivilized community(ies). Be at their place: What would you do if your country was annex for 5 centuries? And by a groups of barbarics people led by Chenghis Khan? Oh...I just can figure it out... in the mirror...

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About the collar insignias...

Post by Lavie » 15 Dec 2004 03:37

I would like to inform that the badges worn by Guomintang officers and especially the son of Chiang Chung Cheng (CKS) dressed in almost exact SS Waffen / Werhmarch uniforms is the alliance of 2 lines stuck together at the top. When you look closer, you will see that this drawing reflect the Sky drawn in many Chinese and Japanese painting.

Among the four A class axis dresses (Nazi, Guomintang, Fascist, Imperial Nippon ) all get the Mao collar stretch with signs that are Leave oak, Sky and the 3 dotchs (Axis).

Now, just be at their place: Why the meaning of the Oak Leave? or the Sky?
Is it a drawing made after a feeling of accomplishment?...

As well, having seen the Martyr Shrines among several countries Japan, Taiwan, the Kamis and Guomintang Martyrs have dresses relatively close together in resemblances as it leads also to the SS and Fascists style sometime...

For info visit and type on Google: Chiang Kai Shek memorial and Martyr Shrines, Yasakuni Shrines.

Lavie
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Here some pictures of similarities of uniforms

Post by Lavie » 22 Dec 2004 02:44

Please take the time to visit the website of my country:

http://www.gio.gov.tw/taiwan-website/av ... ht01_2.htm


Then, please attach your focus on the similarities of accesories of the uniforms dressed by CKS, Hitler and other soldiers as well. You will find out that these resemblances traits of uniforms or the mark of alliances during that period as military motives may be different ranging from Guomintang, Nazis and Fascists. But never forger that Chiang Kai Shek never let dropp a single bomb on japanese army during the Shanghai I guess occupation...but only leflets...[/b]

As you may well go further please also view the video on the website URL above. And you will see pretty much the story and Last Exile of CKS and his followers from every sides...
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Lavie
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Aother set of pictures...

Post by Lavie » 22 Dec 2004 02:51

Here it os interesting to see the dress and style of the officers from the Guomintang at far right .

The little picture is from I guess but not sure Chiang Kai Skek or Chiang Wei Kuo with Sun Yat Tsen...

The Generalissimo wa indeed the BAD student of Sun Yat Tsen...
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