Gas chamber photo?

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cansouth
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Post by cansouth » 29 Sep 2004 13:48

Does any of you know the background of this photo? Do you know for example where it was found, who found it, and when?

Image
On some pages it is presented as a photo of people who are going to be executed in a gas-van.
http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/holoca ... ocaust.htm
http://www.holocaust-uddannelse.dk/holo ... etoder.asp
http://www.delawareonline.com/newsjourn ... eline.html
Jewish men await death in a gas van (a hermetically sealed truck with engine exhaust diverted to the interior) in Chelmno, Poland, in a 1942 photo. The Chelmno camp was not a place for forced labor but essentially an extermination facility.
United States Holocaust Memorial Museum photo archives

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Post by David Thompson » 29 Sep 2004 17:14

cansouth -- The photo has no link to the topic "Continue from myths about gas chambers" so I'm moving it to its own thread.

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Uninen
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Post by Uninen » 29 Sep 2004 19:02

The space in which the men stand is quite tall, and i cannot see how this could be inside a "van" or "truck".. (being so high as it is..) also there "too few" people there.. (i always had the image of these "gas chambers" being filled to max with victims, as to make the killing easier and faster and also to maximize the "productivity"..) and in the pic it seems there is plenty of room to go around..

Just some observations / comments..

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Earldor
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Post by Earldor » 29 Sep 2004 19:43

Uninen wrote:Just some observations / comments..


What is the point of your observations?

The picture could have been taken in the undressing facility. These men could have been the first ones to go in... there are myriad of explanations to the comments/observations you have posed.

Remember, argument from personal incredulity can lead to false conclusions...

How much do you actually know about Chelmno? Here's a good place to start http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/chelmno.html

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Uninen
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Post by Uninen » 29 Sep 2004 21:18

Earldor,

Yes.. your right.. i was bit tired when i first red this topic, and i misunderstood the caption as "people inside gas-van".. which of course is incorrect as it was "people that are going to be (executed) in a gas-van".. (IE their not yet in the van?)

:oops:

And just as i said, i was observing thats all.

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spottedcow
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Re: Gas chamber photo?

Post by spottedcow » 14 Jun 2013 05:30

cansouth wrote: Does any of you know the background of this photo? Do you know for example where it was found, who found it, and when?
In a letter to the Office of Propaganda and Information in Koło, Poland, dated June 9, 1945, Judge Władysław Bednarz (charged by the Polish government to investigate the death camp) wrote “It has come to my attention that the Office of Propaganda has made a public appeal to the population to come forward and provide information concerning the German extermination camp in Chełmno. In connection with the above, please send 3 copies of the mentioned appeal – and provide in writing the names and addresses of the people who answered the appeal. Also, please send the interview protocols of the mentioned individuals.” The photograph appears on page 330 of the Bednarz investigation (IPN Warsaw: Ob 271) with the following handwritten notation on the bottom of the page: “Photograph sent by the Office of Propaganda and Information.” There is no other source information regarding this photograph. Bruno Israel, who served as a guard in Chełmno during the second period (1944-45), told Judge Bednarz that another guard, Otto Rufenach, had a camera that took photographs with this format but he had never seen this particular photo. It appeared to him to be “naked Jews before being gassed.” This is probably the source of subsequent captions for the photo. Examination of the photo however shows that the two men in the front row, center and left, are wearing trousers. It is known that, at least for a period of time, the Jewish labor commando sent to the forest to dig graves worked without shirts. It is my opinion this photograph depicts members of a Jewish labor squad standing in the mansion.

Patrick

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Ponury
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Re: Gas chamber photo?

Post by Ponury » 20 Jun 2013 16:14

Yes, it is possible that an image of a mobile gas chamber:

http://deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/gas_ ... _vans.html

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Re: Gas chamber photo?

Post by Paul Lantos » 24 Jun 2013 15:11

The picture is the cover photo of the (absolutely amazing) book Chelmno and the Holocaust by Patrick Montague. Despite other remarkable photos in the book, I can't find a caption or citation for this one (at least in the Kindle version).

For a variety of reasons it seems unlikely that this is the inside of a gas van in operation, though. The haziness of the image looks like a darkroom / exposure issue, not gas wafting through the air. It looks like there is masonry in the background, which would be consistent with the mansion / manor house at Chelmno where the victims were held before getting on the vans. The vans were enclosed and dark, and victims knew almost immediately that they were being gassed, so they weren't standing around looking at a camera.

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Ponury
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Re: Gas chamber photo?

Post by Ponury » 24 Jun 2013 16:58

In fact, does not fit well the lack of clothing such as jackets, blouses. What kind of braces?Maybe this image Sonderkomanndo of Chelmno?

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spottedcow
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Re: Gas chamber photo?

Post by spottedcow » 24 Jun 2013 20:40

Paul Lantos wrote:The picture is the cover photo of the (absolutely amazing) book Chelmno and the Holocaust by Patrick Montague. Despite other remarkable photos in the book, I can't find a caption or citation for this one (at least in the Kindle version).
Thank you for the kind words about my book. See my post above concerning source information about the photo. The caption for the photo appears on the inside back flap of the dust jacket of the book. It states what I noted above - this is probably members of a Jewish labor detail standing inside the mansion (note the window in right background and the poor condition of the wall which is consistent with descriptions of the mansion given by numerous witnesses.

Better quality photo:
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Re: Gas chamber photo?

Post by Paul Lantos » 25 Jun 2013 14:54

spottedcow wrote:Thank you for the kind words about my book.
You are Patrick Montague? All I can say is thank you, then, for your book. Everyone here needs to read it. It's simply amazing both in its depth of research and in its emotional power. The survivor testimony is unforgettable. It is to Chelmno what Arad's book has become for Aktion Reinhard, simply the reference. And speaking as a grandson of two survivors from Lodz, it certainly helps me understand what (probably) happened to some of my family members and for certain happened to their community.

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Makarov
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Re: Gas chamber photo?

Post by Makarov » 10 Feb 2015 08:22

Paul Lantos wrote:mansion / manor house at Chelmno where the victims were held before getting on the vans.
Is there any good photos of the manor house Before it was destroyed?

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spottedcow
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Re: Gas chamber photo?

Post by spottedcow » 10 Feb 2015 19:04

Yes, there is a recently found photograph of the mansion. It was taken toward the end of the 19th century. It shows the entire front of the building. However, I do not have permission to post it. The photograph will be included in a book soon to be published in Poland entitled Świadectwa Zagłady. Obóz w Chełmnie nad Nerem. Getto wiejskie w Czachulec by Łucja Pawlicka-Nowak and Jolanta Adamska. It is an amazing photo.

Patrick

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Makarov
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Re: Gas chamber photo?

Post by Makarov » 11 Feb 2015 07:56

That is a Picture I´m looking forward to see.

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Re: Gas chamber photo?

Post by GregSingh » 11 Feb 2015 22:30

Makarov wrote:That is a Picture I´m looking forward to see.
Have you seen these pictures of the Schloss ?
http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/chelmnocastle.html
I’m reading a book about anti-gravity. It’s impossible to put down.

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