Revisisionists focus...

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
fju
Member
Posts: 118
Joined: 15 Aug 2002 20:58
Location: canada

Revisisionists focus...

Post by fju » 17 Aug 2002 05:11

I am replacing the original message which I inadvertently posted.

Franz

Revising Our Prejudices
The Holocaust and Freedom of Speech
by Francois Tremblay (e-mail: [email protected]) [May 19th, 2000]

The social disease that we call "Political Correctness" infects all areas of life, even history. Now, history is not an exact science, that much is true. But some people have vested interests in history, for various reasons: ideological support, political support, moral support, and others. And there is no other issue that polarizes opinion and interest more than the subject of the World War II holocaust, mostly directed against the Jews.

It is therefore not a surprise that the Irving trial, which began in January, attracted a lot of press attention. So did the verdict pronounced on April 11th. It was an important trial on many points of view: on freedom of speech, on the Holocaust, on political motivations. David Irving, who is without doubt the most celebrated revisionist historian in the world, had sued for libel a writer named Deborah Lipstadt, who wrote a book called "Denying the Holocaust -- The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory." Lipstadt maintained that Irving, who is otherwise a great historian, has distorted evidence and maintained double standards in his examination of the Holocaust question in order to support his neo-Nazi political aspirations.

The judge found that almost without exception all of the evidence on which this position was based was correct, and that therefore Irving's claim was false. In fact, it is very surprising, by reading the detailed verdict, how Irving distorted clear evidence and blew out of proportion small facts or even lies. How could such an acclaimed historian, who did ground-breaking work on World War II (as the judge himself acknowledged in numerous occasions), also be such an inveterate liar when faced with the facts of the Nazis and their involvement in the mass murder of Jews? Of course one might say that opportunism was an important factor. Being involved in neo-Nazi politics made the Holocaust an easy target for Irving; after all, he is mostly a World War II historian.

The trial was interesting, as I said, for many reasons. One of these is that it sums up very clearly the evidence for and against the notion of the Holocaust, and the Nazis' involvement in it, in calm and impartial terms. This is not a coincidence, since a trial is not usually the place for passions to run high. Therefore it serves this very important purpose.

The main point of contention put forward by revisionists is the alleged non-existence of the gas chambers, at Auschwitz and other camps. The Leuchter report, the main document used to refute the Holocaust, was admitted even by Irving to contain gross scientific mistakes, mistakes which made it completely unuseful as a study of the gassing question. Apart from the lack of internal documentation of the number of victims, all the evidence points to the existence of the Holocaust as described by historical authorities. This lack can also be explained, although with more difficulty (for more information on the codes used by the Nazis, consult Eichmann's testimony to the Israeli police made before his trial).

This trial has also hopefully shed some light on the terrible libel laws in the UK. In Britain, any person accused of libel must make the proof that his propositions are true to their most important extent. Not only need there not be any proof of actual harm, but the burden is on the accused, not the accuser. That is a blow to freedom of speech, there is no doubt about it. What's worse is that British anti-libel laws were even more stringent during the eighties, and were toned down by the Defamation Act of 1996.

By censoring the revisionists, we are unwittingly imitating the kind of people that we want to suppress.

Surely such a set-up discourages free expression in a great way, especially for newspapers. Personally I am against any libel law, as a consequence of free speech. Saying something bad against someone does not hurt this person directly or his property; it is left to each individual to assess the evidence presented and make his own conclusion. Assuming that people are so simple as to believe everything they read is silly, even if nobody ever lost money underestimating public stupidity (except, I suppose, John Travolta and his flop Battlefield Earth, but that's a story for another time).

It is not really my argument here to show that the Holocaust did happen, since it seems to me that this question has been resolved without doubt, to the satisfaction of any rational standard of evidence. I have no doubt that all revisionists are sorely misguided or lying. I am not saying this to be politically correct -- heavens forbid -- it is simply my educated opinion.

I am a lot more disgusted at censorship than I am at revisionism. Holocaust Revisionism is a false and politically motivated position on a terrible incident. Censorship, done by the supposedly "good guys," is far more revolting. At least revisionism does not suppress anyone, and it attempts to use facts (although in a rather shallow way) to make a point. Censorship in no form whatsoever attempts to maintain the merest facade of righteousness; it is an unqualified and undisguised attack on each and every one of us.

There is no doubt that the Holocaust was a most evil event from all points of view. However, I do not subscribe to the theory that discussing the validity of the evidence for such events is a lack of respect for anyone. Mainstream historians themselves have disputed, for example, the estimate of four million victims at Auschwitz, and have established it as being a gross misrepresentation. The real figure turns more realistically around a million victims. Such a "revision" does not make the impact of these individual deaths and the means used any less horrifying. Saying that one million people died instead of four is not a lack of respect to the children or grandchildren of the victims. Even if such was true, nobody has the right to not be offended. Whenever such a "revision" offends anyone or not is irrelevant.


Not only that, but historians, with good reasons, repeat that the Holocaust is a historical fact. If that is so, there shouldn't be any fear about revisionism. Historians should be the first people to encourage rational examination. Of course there is an extent to which such discussion proves to be unfruitful, like we observe with biology and creationism. In fact both beliefs are similar in some ways: they are motivated by particular ideologies and supported by pseudo-scientific inquiry. Creationism is much too popular to be banned, however. I don't know any biologist who seeks to purge creationist thought from society: it is with a renewed delight that they jump on the latest nonsense from our Christian friends.

Because of the persecution made towards revisionists, it is tempting to take their side. Irving himself, according to the LA Times, has been denied entry in Canada, Italy, Germany and Austria because of his activities -- and Holocaust denial laws. In most of Europe, "alternate views on the Holocaust" are forbidden by law. As Irving says, "[t]hey regard me as dangerous, and the word 'dangerous' puzzles me. I don't go around punching people in the face... 'Dangerous' can only mean dangerous to their interests, either in the long term or the short term." One is tempted to extrapolate on these interests. What do they have to hide? During the trial, Irving's books ("Hitler's War" and "Goebbels") have been shown conclusively to be tapestries of lies and deceptions. It should be as easy as shooting fish in a barrel to refute Irving, and even write books on the subject to expose his deceptions. What is so important that people must be fined, jailed or expelled? Not wanting to hurt anyone's feelings? It wouldn't be the first time that governments enforce sensitivity with violence. It's not only immensely stupid, but ironically self-defeating, much like Christian rock.

Why the vested interests on both sides of the fence about this piece of history? Like all fields of inquiry, history is supposed to be impartial. True, many revisionists are associated with neo-Nazi movements, but it is perfectly normal for quacks in all disciplines to associate with people who will want to hear what they have to say. Hatred and violence is hardly the way to convert anyone to your views: it only makes martyrs and creates disillusionment. Nazi Germany learned that lesson too late, and we still haven't learned it.


Hating the Hateful

Martyrs, the revisionists have in spades. Countless students or teachers have been expelled for their views, and countless people have been harassed, attacked or banned from countries for propagating the word of revisionism. The most prominent Internet revisionist, Ernst Zündel, has been the target of three assassination attempts. Fred Leuchter, who wrote the infamous "Leuchter Report" denying the existence of gas chambers, was arrested, jailed and ruined financially in Germany for giving an anti-Holocaust lecture. And so on.

Not only should there not be any laws to regulate speech, but governments should be ideologically neutral, except for politics, of course.

There is no point to this charade. Instead of letting them recite their litany of false statements and complaints, we create martyrs. This strategy has never worked before and it will not work any more now -- let alone having a strategy altogether. The question of the Holocaust, as of most other false popular ideas, does not require a "strategy." It is mostly a partly good sense, partly scientific question. For example, some revisionists say Auschwitz was not used as a death camp since it had a swimming pool. This kind of stupidity is just the result of a lack of good sense. Another argument often used is that delousing chambers have a much higher residual concentration of Zyklon-B than the gas chambers, and that therefore the chambers were not used to gas people. This is a scientific question, which is easy to understand if you consult any basic textbook on the subject: the concentration necessary to kill human beings is much smaller than the concentration necessary to kill microscopic organisms. I think that an uninformed reader, stumbling upon the Leuchter Report or some other revisionist literature, could easily believe that the Holocaust is a myth. That's the problem of being uninformed, you see. From a pragmatic viewpoint, it would be much more effective to inform a large segment of these people rather than imprison their most vocal representatives.

As I said, by censoring the revisionists, we are unwittingly imitating the kind of people that we want to suppress. Censorship is not unique to Nazi-like societies, but is certainly one of their characteristics. Hitler had all the "bad art" and "non-German art" exposed to ridicule and relegated to dusty attics. Now we are exposing all the "bad ideas" and "non-acceptable ideas" to litigation. There is a double standard, though; we certainly don't persecute creationists or astrologists for their opinions, false or destructive as they may be. Perhaps this is because most delusions are seen as harmless.

I also note that we often rationalize this behaviour by classifying revisionism as "hate speech" (it is officially qualified as such in Canada). I suppose that is a convenient way of pushing embarrassing issues away: "they're just hateful people." The mere notion of "hate speech" is ridiculous. How does it go? If you insult someone because you hate him, it's not so bad, but if you insult someone because you hate his race, it's an outrage? To me, an insult is an insult, any way it is presented. I have no more qualms about getting insulted because of my race or nationality any more than being insulted because of my opinions. I suspect that is a more rational attitude than the Mother Superior-ing that we see flourish today, although I'll leave the more thorough appraisal as an exercise for the readers.

The notion of hate is also subjective, in the manner that we use it. To Christians, an atheist web site may be hate speech. To a homeopath, a web site on chemistry may be hate speech. Politicians can get away with defining hate into existence since they follow the general consensus of what is "politically correct." We see once again that democracy produces very dangerous effects -- hate laws are little more than organized mob lynchings.

Not only should there not be any laws to regulate speech, but governments should be ideologically neutral, except for politics, of course. The notion of a "Holocaust-denial law" is as ridiculous as creationism in schools, or a law saying that the long established value called Pi is equal to 3. It's just not the government's job to determine what is true and what is not. Politicians are there to administrate nations, not to determine scientific truths.

I have gone a long way from Irving, but I think it is a point that deserves to be made. The Irving trial gave the occasion to the media to once more appraise the two sides of the debate. And that's what a free society is all about.
[/i]
Last edited by fju on 17 Aug 2002 21:19, edited 9 times in total.

User avatar
Scott Smith
Member
Posts: 5602
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 21:17
Location: Arizona

WHO WROTE THIS?

Post by Scott Smith » 17 Aug 2002 05:43

Um, why are you reposting Roberto without even giving him credit? Spam or no, at least provide attribution. Just edit it and include the link to its source.

Thanks, Scott
:)

fju
Member
Posts: 118
Joined: 15 Aug 2002 20:58
Location: canada

Sorry

Post by fju » 17 Aug 2002 06:24

I didn't know this was previously posted, I've got too much stuff all over the place that I've accumulated.

I'll just delete it and start again.

Again, my apologies,

Franz

:oops:

User avatar
Scott Smith
Member
Posts: 5602
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 21:17
Location: Arizona

Re: Sorry

Post by Scott Smith » 17 Aug 2002 07:34

fju wrote:I didn't know this was previously posted, I've got too much stuff all over the place that I've accumulated.

I'll just delete it and start again.

Again, my apologies,

Franz

:oops:
No problem, Franz. Here is the link so you can repost. Even if you don't know the link, at least give the guy credit for his own Spam.
:wink:

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... 28&start=0

fju
Member
Posts: 118
Joined: 15 Aug 2002 20:58
Location: canada

Thank you

Post by fju » 17 Aug 2002 20:20

Thank you, Scott,

I'm too computer illiterate to have corrected this. I'll post another interesting article in its place.

All the best,

Franz

fju
Member
Posts: 118
Joined: 15 Aug 2002 20:58
Location: canada

from a "Historikerstreit" member

Post by fju » 18 Aug 2002 05:58

The widely held opinion that any doubts about the dominant view regarding the "Holocaust" and the Six Million must be treated, from the outset, as the expression of a wicked and inhumane outlook, and, if possible, banned . . . is absolutely unacceptable, and indeed must be rejected as an attack against the principle of scholarly freedom.

. . . The questions [raised by revisionists] about the reliability of witnesses, the value of documents as evidence, the technical feasibility of certain operations, the credibility of statistical estimates, and the importance of circumstances are not only permissible, but, on scholarly grounds, are unavoidable. Moreover, every attempt to suppress [revisionist] arguments and evidence by ignoring or prohibiting them must be regarded as illegitimate.

Dr. Ernest Nolte (Professor, Free University, Berlin), Points of Contention: Current and Future Controversies About National Socialism, Propylaen, 1993

User avatar
Roberto
Member
Posts: 4505
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 15:35
Location: Lisbon, Portugal

Re: Sorry

Post by Roberto » 19 Aug 2002 13:22

Scott Smith wrote:
fju wrote:I didn't know this was previously posted, I've got too much stuff all over the place that I've accumulated.

I'll just delete it and start again.

Again, my apologies,

Franz

:oops:
No problem, Franz. Here is the link so you can repost. Even if you don't know the link, at least give the guy credit for his own Spam.
:wink:

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... 28&start=0

Just in case someone is wondering why the Reverend refers to my contributions as “spam”, the answer is quite simple:

“Spam” is what the “Revisionist” True Believer calls any piece of information that does not fit into his ideological bubble.

Especially if – as is generally the case – he has no arguments against it and is unable to answer to the questions raised by the evidence he would rather ignore.

fju
Member
Posts: 118
Joined: 15 Aug 2002 20:58
Location: canada

Re: Sorry

Post by fju » 19 Aug 2002 13:30

Roberto wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:
fju wrote:I didn't know this was previously posted, I've got too much stuff all over the place that I've accumulated.

I'll just delete it and start again.

Again, my apologies,

Franz

:oops:
No problem, Franz. Here is the link so you can repost. Even if you don't know the link, at least give the guy credit for his own Spam.
:wink:

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... 28&start=0

Just in case someone is wondering why the Reverend refers to my contributions as “spam”, the answer is quite simple:

“Spam” is what the “Revisionist” True Believer calls any piece of information that does not fit into his ideological bubble.

Especially if – as is generally the case – he has no arguments against it and is unable to answer to the questions raised by the evidence he would rather ignore.
Hi Roberto,

That was a great piece.

It brought up a point that had been ignored, and your reasoning is impressive.

The real treasures lie off the well-worn track.

Regards,

Franz

fju
Member
Posts: 118
Joined: 15 Aug 2002 20:58
Location: canada

to Roberto

Post by fju » 19 Aug 2002 14:06

>>The existence and implementation of gas chambers for extermination purposes is a matter of special concern to deniers since they symbolize more dramatically than anything else the rational, systematic and impersonal nature of the killing machine. Every Holocaust denier feels compelled to make this issue central the argument. [U.S. historian, Harry Elmer] Barnes' contention was that the gas chambers were post-war inventions. Surely Barnes was aware of the extensive testimony provided to the British as early as 1944 by Auschwitz escapee, Rudolph Vrba (see Martin Gilbert, Auschwitz and the Allies, 1981:190-198).<<

A Brief History of Holocaust Denial
by Ben S. Austin
Roberto,

As for the testimony of Vrba, you can find my posting

Why Give the Deniers Ammunition - the Jewish Lies

Franz

User avatar
Scott Smith
Member
Posts: 5602
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 21:17
Location: Arizona

Re: Sorry

Post by Scott Smith » 20 Aug 2002 01:09

Roberto wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:No problem, Franz. Here is the link so you can repost. Even if you don't know the link, at least give the guy credit for his own Spam.
:wink:

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... 28&start=0
Just in case someone is wondering why the Reverend refers to my contributions as “spam”, the answer is quite simple:

“Spam” is what the “Revisionist” True Believer calls any piece of information that does not fit into his ideological bubble.

Especially if – as is generally the case – he has no arguments against it and is unable to answer to the questions raised by the evidence he would rather ignore.
Well, my dear Guardian, fresh from I hope a wonderful vacation, Spam is certainly using other people's work without attribution or notation, hence my complaint and providing the link so that Franz could repost it for discussion. I never said that I took issue with the post itself, although I do take issue with the "sex of the angels" thing that the whole subject is somehow beyond discussion. Always promoting discussion is the key to the Truth, IMHO. :)
The Dictionary wrote: SPAM:
From a skit on the British television series Monty Python's Flying Circus in which chanting of the word SPAM, a trademark for a canned meat product, overrides all dialog. Unsolicited commercial e-mail sent to a large number of addresses (1994).

User avatar
Roberto
Member
Posts: 4505
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 15:35
Location: Lisbon, Portugal

Post by Roberto » 20 Aug 2002 12:19

Scott Smith wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:No problem, Franz. Here is the link so you can repost. Even if you don't know the link, at least give the guy credit for his own Spam.
:wink:

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... 28&start=0
Just in case someone is wondering why the Reverend refers to my contributions as “spam”, the answer is quite simple:

“Spam” is what the “Revisionist” True Believer calls any piece of information that does not fit into his ideological bubble.

Especially if – as is generally the case – he has no arguments against it and is unable to answer to the questions raised by the evidence he would rather ignore.
Scott Smith wrote:Well, my dear Guardian, fresh from I hope a wonderful vacation, Spam is certainly using other people's work without attribution or notation, hence my complaint and providing the link so that Franz could repost it for discussion. I never said that I took issue with the post itself,
Scott Smith wrote:Even if you don't know the link, at least give the guy credit for his own Spam.
Looks like Smith is the kind of fellow who will deny that he ate the sausage when half of it is still sticking out of his throat.
Scott Smith wrote:although I do take issue with the "sex of the angels" thing that the whole subject is somehow beyond discussion.
Nothing is beyond discussion, but discussing the specifics of certain killing devices is a pointless academic exercise, IMHO – what we down here call a discussion about the sex of the angels.
The Dictionary wrote: SPAM:
From a skit on the British television series Monty Python's Flying Circus in which chanting of the word SPAM, a trademark for a canned meat product, overrides all dialog. Unsolicited commercial e-mail sent to a large number of addresses (1994).
I don’t see how that applies to my contributions. It fits Smith’s nonsense like a glove, however.

User avatar
Scott Smith
Member
Posts: 5602
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 21:17
Location: Arizona

Post by Scott Smith » 21 Aug 2002 01:02

Roberto wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:
The Dictionary wrote: SPAM:
From a skit on the British television series Monty Python's Flying Circus in which chanting of the word SPAM, a trademark for a canned meat product, overrides all dialog. Unsolicited commercial e-mail sent to a large number of addresses (1994).
I don’t see how that applies to my contributions. It fits Smith’s nonsense like a glove, however.
That depends on if it is intended to provoke multilateral discussion or just to provoke.
:wink:

User avatar
Roberto
Member
Posts: 4505
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 15:35
Location: Lisbon, Portugal

Post by Roberto » 21 Aug 2002 12:07

Scott Smith wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:
The Dictionary wrote: SPAM:
From a skit on the British television series Monty Python's Flying Circus in which chanting of the word SPAM, a trademark for a canned meat product, overrides all dialog. Unsolicited commercial e-mail sent to a large number of addresses (1994).
I don’t see how that applies to my contributions. It fits Smith’s nonsense like a glove, however.
That depends on if it is intended to provoke multilateral discussion or just to provoke.
:wink:
I don’t see how there could be a “multilateral discussion” with ideologically motivated propagandists who distort and deny historical facts in support of a personal or political agenda.

So I’ll stick to provoking them by challenging the articles of faith they try to sell.

User avatar
Scott Smith
Member
Posts: 5602
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 21:17
Location: Arizona

Post by Scott Smith » 21 Aug 2002 13:00

Roberto wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:
The Dictionary wrote: SPAM:
From a skit on the British television series Monty Python's Flying Circus in which chanting of the word SPAM, a trademark for a canned meat product, overrides all dialog. Unsolicited commercial e-mail sent to a large number of addresses (1994).
I don’t see how that applies to my contributions. It fits Smith’s nonsense like a glove, however.
That depends on if it is intended to provoke multilateral discussion or just to provoke.
:wink:
I don’t see how there could be a “multilateral discussion” with ideologically motivated propagandists who distort and deny historical facts in support of a personal or political agenda.
Well, that's your problem right there, Roberto. You can't seem to respect views that differ from your own. :?
So I’ll stick to provoking them by challenging the articles of faith they try to sell.
:D

User avatar
Marcus
Member
Posts: 33963
Joined: 08 Mar 2002 22:35
Location: Europe

Post by Marcus » 21 Aug 2002 13:03

This is going nowhere.

/Marcus

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”