Stalin's crimes -- How bad were they?

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Doggowitz
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Stalin's crimes -- How bad were they?

Post by Doggowitz » 12 Oct 2004 13:21

[This thread was split off by the moderator from the thread Stalin's purges -- Responsible for 20 million deaths at: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=61548 -- DT]




YOu should never forget that Stalin killed this about 20 Mio in an time from about 30 Years.

Hitler managed to kill 12 Mio in about 5 Years!

Now who is worser?

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Post by rappcom » 12 Oct 2004 13:56

I`m not really sure who`s (worser), but I know who is "worse".

Sounds as though Hitler is # 1 on the mass murder list.

Great replies. THANKS AGAIN ......

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Post by Topspeed » 12 Oct 2004 17:33

Satish wrote: Second Hitler's victims were largely Jews. Stalin did not focus on a particular race or reason. He was a paranoid and killed whoever he though was a threat.
This is not true in 1940 Molotov visited Berlin and asked if they can finish the business with Finland that they started in 1939. All finns and related like itzhorians ( ingrians ) living in USSR were to be deported for lifetime in Siberia in forced labor camps ( starting from 1937 ) and very few survived...that fills all hallmarks of a genoside.
Molotov insisted that finns are a threat to the very existence of the soviets. I think this leaves no question about the systematic annihilation of the finns open. Better study facts before opens mouth here.

regards,

Juke T

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Post by Fugazi » 12 Oct 2004 18:34

Molotov insisted that finns are a threat to the very existence of the soviets.
It's not that germain to this thread (beg the moderator's indulgence), but Topspeed may well be interested in the following indication that the kind of thinking quoted above had long legs. The account of the 1939 war against Finland below is taken from Graham Lyons (ed), "The Russian Version of the Second World War: the History of the War as Taught to Soviet Schoolchildren", Facts on File Publications, 1976, pp12-13:
The Soviet state was faced with the acute problem of further strengthening its security, in particular on the border with Finland. At the time the Soviet-Finnish border passed 32 kilometers from Leningrad. On the isthmus of Karelia, Finland, with the help of large imperialist states, had constructed huge fortifications, thus creating a military spring-board for an attack on the USSR. The Finnish Government declined the invitation of the USSR to conclude a mutual aid agreement and broke off negotiations concerning the exchange of Finnish territory near Leningrad for twice as much territory in Karelia. At the end of November, 1939, artillery fire directed in provocation against our territory from the Finnish side forced the Soviet Government to take retaliatory measures.

Thus Finnish reactionary forces, incited by Fascist Germany and other imperialist powers, unleashed war against the Soviet Union. The Finnish military command had thought they could hold the Soviet troops on the approaches to the so-called 'Mannerheim Line', consisting of a system of huge fortifications, and then, when they had received aid from the Western Powers, they hoped to pass to the attack and transfer military operations on to the territory of the USSR.
And further on page 13:
Thus the defeat of the Finnish troops and the conclusion of a peace treaty between the Soviet Union and Finland in March, 1940, spoilt the plans for the organisation of 'great crusade' of world imperialism against the Soviet Union.
I guess the Finns were pretty damn tough to be such a threat to the USSR! The spin work displayed in this book is positively heroic.

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Post by Topspeed » 13 Oct 2004 03:31

Fugazi wrote: It's not that germain to this thread (beg the moderator's indulgence), but Topspeed may well be interested in the following indication that the kind of thinking quoted above had long legs. The account of the 1939 war against Finland below is taken from Graham Lyons (ed), "The Russian Version of the Second World War: the History of the War as Taught to Soviet Schoolchildren", Facts on File Publications, 1976, pp12-13:
The Soviet state was faced with the acute problem of further strengthening its security, in particular on the border with Finland. At the time the Soviet-Finnish border passed 32 kilometers from Leningrad. On the isthmus of Karelia, Finland, with the help of large imperialist states, had constructed huge fortifications, thus creating a military spring-board for an attack on the USSR. The Finnish Government declined the invitation of the USSR to conclude a mutual aid agreement and broke off negotiations concerning the exchange of Finnish territory near Leningrad for twice as much territory in Karelia. At the end of November, 1939, artillery fire directed in provocation against our territory from the Finnish side forced the Soviet Government to take retaliatory measures.

Thus Finnish reactionary forces, incited by Fascist Germany and other imperialist powers, unleashed war against the Soviet Union. The Finnish military command had thought they could hold the Soviet troops on the approaches to the so-called 'Mannerheim Line', consisting of a system of huge fortifications, and then, when they had received aid from the Western Powers, they hoped to pass to the attack and transfer military operations on to the territory of the USSR.
And further on page 13:
Thus the defeat of the Finnish troops and the conclusion of a peace treaty between the Soviet Union and Finland in March, 1940, spoilt the plans for the organisation of 'great crusade' of world imperialism against the Soviet Union.
I guess the Finns were pretty damn tough to be such a threat to the USSR! The spin work displayed in this book is positively heroic.
I don't know where you getting at, but none of this bullshit is true. Soviets archives have revealed that the artillery shots before Winter War were shot from Soviet side as finns always knew they were. Furthermore from 1937 onwards finns were labelled as enemies of the state in USSR. Soviet historywriting was totally made by spindoctors. None of the finnish fortifications were there becuse finns had plans to attack USSR they were purely defensive in which purpose they also saved Finland from Soviet occupation in 1939-1940.

See more about Mainila shots in: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=57338

best regards,

Juke T :lol:

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Post by Topspeed » 13 Oct 2004 03:38

menel wrote:The problem is why people in Western Europe and USA no nothing about Stalin's crimes. In Eastern Europe everybody knows what was going on.
Menel you sound like one of the sane ones here. I really like you accurate observation, Stalin made USSR more imperialistic than the Tzar's Russia ever was.

USSR's all heroic 5-year plans were achieved by forced labour ( = slavery ). After Stalins death only the criminal prisoners were freed and political prisoners ( finns, ingrians, counterrevolutionaries ) were kept in camps and their number only increased when stalinists were hauled to the camps from 1953 onwards.

rgds,

Juke :?

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Sergey Romanov
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Post by Sergey Romanov » 13 Oct 2004 04:13

RAPP
Oh, and sorry I don`t have evidence
Well, maybe then you shouldn't throw unsubstantiated statistics around?
In the end, Stalin was responsible for (almost) twice as many deaths. So no matter the times tables involved, STALIN KILLED MORE PEOPLE.
Um, sorry, you just said that you have no evidence of that.

BOOBAZZ
As to Stalin's victims - I am affraid today it is quite immpossible to state exact numbers. Soviets were not so much scrupulous in records as Germans were, so the exact numbers of Gulag inmates will probable never uncovered.
Actually they were, and statistics was posted at this forum.
Nazis, on the other hand, destroyed most documents.

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Post by rappcom » 13 Oct 2004 04:50

Hey Seregay, I`m American, and we`ve never done anything wrong either. Funny how that works, isn`t it ????

And by the way, you don`t have evidence to dis-prove those statistics either do you ? And if you do ... then post them here along with your next prEdictable reply.

Thanks for your great input. I LIKE YOU !!

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Post by Sergey Romanov » 13 Oct 2004 04:52

Repp, your pathetic "reply" shows that you're not worth bothering with.

rappcom
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Post by rappcom » 13 Oct 2004 05:02

It`s not "REPP", it`s "RAPP", and you say that because of my reply I`m not worth bothering with, but in all actuality, you are replying with kind of statement because you know that I challenged you with something that you can`t possibly produce. Provide this forum with the evidence to dis-prove the thrown around statistics.

You know that you can`t, and so you used a childish reply to ditch out.....

And as I knew that you would, you gave a "predictable" reply.

I STILL LIKE YOU THOUGH. (NO HARD FEELINGS).

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Post by David Thompson » 13 Oct 2004 05:13

Everyone -- Please avoid personal comments in posting.

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Post by David Thompson » 13 Oct 2004 06:08

Two posts -- one from Sergey Romanov and one from Apocalypse_Now were deleted by the moderator for violation of the civility rule following the above warning.
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Post by Sergey Romanov » 13 Oct 2004 06:56

I will just dissect repp's statements one last time.
Everything started with repp's claim about Stalin's democide being the worst of all, and the number of his victims being on the scale of 20 million. Well, first of all, the numbers given for the number of Mao's victims are usually higher, so why this fixation on Stalin?
Then I challenged repp to produce evidence for his statistics. I didn't say that it was bogus, or anything. I just wanted to see some evidence.
repp was quite honest: he said that he didn't have any evidence. OK. But several messages later he reiterated his statements. When I pointed out the contradiction, repp challenged me to refute his unsubstantiated statisitc. How's that, huh? Obviously, repp does not understand that the burden of proof is on him to defend his statements, not on me to refute them. So, dear readers, decide for yourself, whether he's worth bothering with.

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Post by menel » 13 Oct 2004 07:40

Aleksander Solzenicyn in his book "archipelag gulag" says about 60 milion killed until 1956.
Robert Conquest in his book "Great terror"says about 42 milion dead in the official gulag statistics.

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Post by Sergey Romanov » 13 Oct 2004 07:48

Aleksander Solzenicyn in his book "archipelag gulag" says about 60 milion killed until 1956.
Robert Conquest in his book "Great terror"says about 42 milion dead in the official gulag statistics.
Yes, I know. These are outdated numbers (though they never were legitimate, in the first place). And though at the time when Conquest wrote his book the official GULAG stats (which I posted in this forum) were not available to him, I somehow doubt that even he exaggerated the real numbers that much. You are probably mistaken.

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