Stalin's crimes -- How bad were they?

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menel
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Post by menel » 13 Oct 2004 07:58

Sergey Romanov wrote:
Aleksander Solzenicyn in his book "archipelag gulag" says about 60 milion killed until 1956.
Robert Conquest in his book "Great terror"says about 42 milion dead in the official gulag statistics.


Yes, I know. These are outdated numbers (though they never were legitimate, in the first place). And though at the time when Conquest wrote his book the official GULAG stats (which I posted in this forum) were not available to him, I somehow doubt that even he exaggerated the real numbers that much. You are probably mistaken.

Sorry Sergey, I can't kick with a horse. :?

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Sergey Romanov
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Post by Sergey Romanov » 13 Oct 2004 08:08

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean.
Here are the stats, BTW:

viewtopic.php?t=55467

As you can see, the notion of 42 million dead in GULAG is absurd beyond belief.

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Sergey Romanov
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Post by Sergey Romanov » 13 Oct 2004 10:36

the gulags were known to the western world but the conditions and slave labour and deaths in these camps holding polictical prisoners then wartime prisoners was on a far greater scale than the nazi equvilant of jewish death camps. i feel if you


Well, here's the data on GULAG mortality, so one can compare:

Code: Select all

Year      Dead     %

1930*     7980    4,2
1931*     7283    2,9
1932*     13197   2,9
1933*     67297   15,3
1934*     25187   4,28
1935**    31636   2,75
1936**    24993   2,11
1937**    31056   2,42
1938**    108654  5,35
1939***   44750   3,1
1940      41275   2,72
1941      115484  6,1
1942      352560  24,9
1943      267826  22,4
1944      114481  9,2
1945      81917   5,95
1946      30715   2,2
1947      66830   3,59
1948      50659   2,28
1949      29350   1,21
1950      24511   0,95
1951      22466   0,92
1952      20643   0,84
1953****  9628    0,67
1954      8358    0,69
1955      4842    0,53
1956      3164    0,4

Total: 1606748

*    - ITL only
**   - ITL, ITK, prisons
***  - further - ITL, ITK
**** - without special camps

Kokurin, Petrov, GULAG (Chief Directorate of Camps) 1918-1960, Moscow, 2000, pp. 441, 442.
Last edited by Sergey Romanov on 13 Oct 2004 11:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Topspeed » 13 Oct 2004 10:50

Sergey Romanov,

I recently read a testimony of a finnish citizen Boris Rosenqvist who was able to return when government pressed the soviets in 1927. He was in an island in White Sea area gulags for six weeks and said that daily death rate on this single camp was 1-10. Had there been at least 1000 people then the minimum death rate would have been 30%+ annually.

This was one story in a collection of surviver stories from Gulags. Book is Surviving the Soviet meat grinder ( Suomalaisia vankileirien Saaristossa by Vettenniemi ).

rgds,

Juke

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Sergey Romanov
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Post by Sergey Romanov » 13 Oct 2004 10:58

Topspeed, it is possible, of course. But, first of all, one cannot extrapolate from such a small sample, second, such a death rate does not seem probable since even during the war the maximum death rate was 25%. And anybody who has studied eyewitness testimony knows that one must be wary of relying on their numerical estimates.

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Post by Topspeed » 13 Oct 2004 11:06

Sergey Romanov wrote:Topspeed, it is possible, of course. But, first of all, one cannot extrapolate from such a small sample, second, such a death rate does not seem probable since even during the war the maximum death rate was 25%. And anybody who has studied eyewitness testimony knows that one must be wary of relying on their numerical estimates.


Indeed and if you look at that testimony closer it tells that in worst scenario whole 1000 strong inmate group changed to new prisoners annually ! Possibly very strong and wisely operating prisoners ever lasted a year. Best way to kill yourself was to be arduous and trying to earn that extra bread.

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Post by Sergey Romanov » 13 Oct 2004 11:10

Topspeed, it is entirely possible that certain groups of inmates were treated worse than other groups, had different death rates, etc.

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Post by menel » 13 Oct 2004 19:56

Sergey Romanov wrote:
the gulags were known to the western world but the conditions and slave labour and deaths in these camps holding polictical prisoners then wartime prisoners was on a far greater scale than the nazi equvilant of jewish death camps. i feel if you


Well, here's the data on GULAG mortality, so one can compare:

Code: Select all

Year      Dead     %

1930*     7980    4,2
1931*     7283    2,9
1932*     13197   2,9
1933*     67297   15,3
1934*     25187   4,28
1935**    31636   2,75
1936**    24993   2,11
1937**    31056   2,42
1938**    108654  5,35
1939***   44750   3,1
1940      41275   2,72
1941      115484  6,1
1942      352560  24,9
1943      267826  22,4
1944      114481  9,2
1945      81917   5,95
1946      30715   2,2
1947      66830   3,59
1948      50659   2,28
1949      29350   1,21
1950      24511   0,95
1951      22466   0,92
1952      20643   0,84
1953****  9628    0,67
1954      8358    0,69
1955      4842    0,53
1956      3164    0,4

Total: 1606748

*    - ITL only
**   - ITL, ITK, prisons
***  - further - ITL, ITK
**** - without special camps

Kokurin, Petrov, GULAG (Chief Directorate of Camps) 1918-1960, Moscow, 2000, pp. 441, 442.

Year Dead % Total prisoners

1930* 7980 4,2 - 190 000
1931* 7283 2,9 - 251 138
1932* 13197 2,9 - 455 069
1933* 67297 15,3 - 439 850
1934* 25187 4,28 - 588 481
1935** 31636 2,75 - 1 150 400
1936** 24993 2,11 - 1 184 502
1937** 31056 2,42 - 1 283 306
1938** 108654 5,35 - 2 030 916
1939*** 44750 3,1- 1 443 548
1940 41275 2,72 - 1 517 463
1941 115484 6,1 - 1 893 180
1942 352560 24,9 - 1 415 904
1943 267826 22,4 - 1 195 652
1944 114481 9,2 - 1 244 359
1945 81917 5,95 - 1 376 756
1946 30715 2,2 - 1 396 136
1947 66830 3,59 - 1 861 560
1948 50659 2,28 - 2 221 886
1949 29350 1,21 - 2 425 620
1950 24511 0,95 - 2 580 105
1951 22466 0,92 - 2 441 957
1952 20643 0,84 - 2 457 500
1953**** 9628 0,67- 1 437 015
1954 8358 0,69 - 1 211 304
1955 4842 0,53 - 913 585
1956 3164 0,4 - 791 000

Total: 1606748 - 37 398 192

So you want to say that the biggest number of prisoners in gulag was 2,5 milion. :D


Topspeed, it is entirely possible that certain groups of inmates were treated worse than other groups, had different death rates, etc.

You're right Siergey. The rule was very simple: you don't work- you don't eat.

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Post by Topspeed » 13 Oct 2004 20:14

Sergey Romanov wrote:Topspeed, it is entirely possible that certain groups of inmates were treated worse than other groups, had different death rates, etc.


I think this specific camp in White Sea area was amongst the worst what I read about. The chief of guards was notorious mr. Michelson known as the butcher of Crimea where he supposedly had killed 3 000 white russian officers + their families. To him human life meant nothing...on the first day of Rosenqvists visit there was an open execution of 3 ill behaving prisoners. Somehow I got the feeling some prisoners wanted get shot rather than living a day longer in the camp and did get instantly shot.

rgds,

Juke

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Post by Doggowitz » 13 Oct 2004 20:17

Somehow I got the feeling some prisoners wanted get shot rather than living a day longer in the camp and did get instantly shot.

You were there?

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Post by Topspeed » 13 Oct 2004 20:26

Doggowitz wrote:
Somehow I got the feeling some prisoners wanted get shot rather than living a day longer in the camp and did get instantly shot.

You were there?


No I just read the book and the shootings happened without a warning and bodies were just thrown aside sometimes covered with snow. Mr. Rosenqvist explains very thoroughly the conditions at the Solovetsk ( or something like that ) camp in 1927. Also death of several inmates..and some other testimonies back up each others..the conduct was the same, but Rosenqvists experiences are in horror sense only topped by Aino Kuusinen's story where she explains that frosen bodies were used as logs when doing a railroad at the permafrost area.

rgds,

Juke

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Post by Doggowitz » 13 Oct 2004 20:33

Thanks, your writing just suggested me that you was actually there.
No prob. :)

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Post by Topspeed » 13 Oct 2004 20:39

Doggowitz wrote:Thanks, your writing just suggested me that you was actually there.
No prob. :)


Here is Finlands foreign minister recommending the book !
http://www.tuomioja.org/gulag.htm

Here is how to get the english edition:
http://www.getcited.org/pub/103378066

Here is picture of the author:
http://www.uta.fi/~csmaso/aatos/vetten01.htm

English summary of the book:
http://granum.uta.fi/english/kirjanTied ... te_id=5101

The Stalins canal alone that bound the Baltic Sea to White Sea cost lives of 200 000 labor camp inmates.

I hope this help when evaluating what took place in the camps.



regards,

Topspeed

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Re: Stalin's crimes -- How bad were they?

Post by Kunikov » 13 Oct 2004 22:27

Doggowitz wrote:


YOu should never forget that Stalin killed this about 20 Mio in an time from about 30 Years.

Hitler managed to kill 12 Mio in about 5 Years!

Now who is worser?


There is no evidence to support the idea that Stalin killed anywhere close to 20 million people.

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Post by Doggowitz » 13 Oct 2004 22:42

20 Mio (there are some folks out there who call someone Pro-Stalin when he says 20 Mio) ist the standartisized number for the Stalinist Toll, like for the War it is 55-60 Mio, for the Holocaust 6 Mio, and so on.

The Number is not important in my statement, wether it were 10 Mio 13 Mio or 30 Mio.
What I wanted to show is that Stalin had 30 Years to fullfill his killings, while Hitler did his Killings in 5 Years.


When I may ask you, what do you think (and prove) were the number of Stalinist Terror?

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