US tanks and other AFVs that landed in Normandie

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Benedick
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US tanks and other AFVs that landed in Normandie

Post by Benedick » 20 Oct 2004 08:54

Which tanks and AFVs landed in Normandy during the invasion? I know Sherman is one, but which variants.

TIA

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Sun Tsu
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Post by Sun Tsu » 20 Oct 2004 14:34

As far as I know/remember it was the M4A3 version (both with 75 mm and 76 mm guns).

The M10 was also used qute a bit (although I don't know which variants)...

/Sun

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Re: US tanks and other AFVs that landed in Normandie

Post by JonS » 21 Oct 2004 00:21

Benedick wrote:Which tanks and AFVs landed in Normandy during the invasion? I know Sherman is one, but which variants.

You're kidding right? That list would run to several tightly packed pages.

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Re: US tanks and other AFVs that landed in Normandie

Post by Benedick » 21 Oct 2004 01:49

JonS wrote:
Benedick wrote:Which tanks and AFVs landed in Normandy during the invasion? I know Sherman is one, but which variants.

You're kidding right? That list would run to several tightly packed pages.


Nope. Sorry, I'm not kidding. If I know these AFV, you think I will ask?

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Re: US tanks and other AFVs that landed in Normandie

Post by Tim Smith » 21 Oct 2004 07:53

Benedick wrote:Which tanks and AFVs landed in Normandy during the invasion? I know Sherman is one, but which variants.

TIA



Your question is unclear.

Do you mean just the invasion itself, D-Day?

Or do you mean the first week of the campaign, D-Day and the next 6 days?

Or do you mean the entire Normandy campaign up until the end of July 1944, when the breakout started?

Please specify the exact start and end dates of the period you are interested in.

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Benedick
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Re: US tanks and other AFVs that landed in Normandie

Post by Benedick » 21 Oct 2004 09:18

Tim Smith wrote:
Benedick wrote:Which tanks and AFVs landed in Normandy during the invasion? I know Sherman is one, but which variants.

TIA



Your question is unclear.

Do you mean just the invasion itself, D-Day?

Or do you mean the first week of the campaign, D-Day and the next 6 days?

Or do you mean the entire Normandy campaign up until the end of July 1944, when the breakout started?

Please specify the exact start and end dates of the period you are interested in.


oh, ok.

Well, just the invasion itself, D-day.

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Re: US tanks and other AFVs that landed in Normandie

Post by Darrin » 21 Oct 2004 12:39

Benedick wrote:
oh, ok.

Well, just the invasion itself, D-day.





There were no shermans with 76mm guns until late aug. There were perhaps 12 different sherman models.

2 of these sherman models used diseal engines and were not used by the US army at least not at dday. 3 of the models used 76 mm guns which were not used at day one of these was the same as above. We reduce the total sherman var by 4 to 8 which may of been at dday. I still don't know exactly which var were present.

Thier were perhaps two different models of the M10 tank des made. I don't know which ones were present but some were. These TDs would have been armed with the 3" gun which gave simlar pen to the 76mm gun.

There were perhaps 7 different stuart models that were made including perhaps 2 diseal models which the US army did not use. These later diseal models were not thier but the stuarts were. Exactly which of the 5 var were present I don't know.

The total number of tanks that the US landed on dday by adding up TOE would be 433. This includes TDs, shermans and stuarts and represents a max number assuming no tanks were des which certainly wasn't the case. This also does not in any way include the tanks landed with CW forces.

The 899 TD bat was the only US TD unit landed on dday. It had a max of 36 M10 TDs.

The remining tanks were divided bettween 5 indep tank des bat and 1 cav res sqn.

The indep TBs were the 70, 741, 743, 746 and the 749 all of which had 76 tanks of various types. Generaly these units had a mix of predominatly shermans and fewer stuarts. A few of these TBs were entiraly compased of sturats and were unoffically called light TBs.

The cav rec sqn was the 4th of 4th cav group. It was composed of 17 tanks of what type I do not know off hand but suspect it was stuarts.

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Re: US tanks and other AFVs that landed in Normandie

Post by Darrin » 21 Oct 2004 14:56

Darrin wrote:
Benedick wrote:
oh, ok.

Well, just the invasion itself, D-day.





There were no shermans with 76mm guns until late aug. There were perhaps 12 different sherman models.

2 of these sherman models used diseal engines and were not used by the US army at least not at dday. 3 of the models used 76 mm guns which were not used at day one of these was the same as above. We reduce the total sherman var by 4 to 8 which may of been at dday. I still don't know exactly which var were present.





There was one more sherman varient that also was definatly not used in Dday. That would be the jumbo sherman which means 5 out of 12 models were definatly not used by the US at Day. Leaving just 7 models or varients.

There were also 2 105mm how gun sherman varients that if they were used at Dday were only around in tiny numbers. That means perhaps as few as 5 common var. Of these they tended to use similar better varients for the US forces in theatre. Then give away similar var to allies as LL. I don't know exactly which var went where or I would tell you.

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Re: US tanks and other AFVs that landed in Normandie

Post by RichTO90 » 21 Oct 2004 17:31

Darrin wrote:There was one more sherman varient that also was definatly not used in Dday. That would be the jumbo sherman which means 5 out of 12 models were definatly not used by the US at Day. Leaving just 7 models or varients.

There were also 2 105mm how gun sherman varients that if they were used at Dday were only around in tiny numbers. That means perhaps as few as 5 common var. Of these they tended to use similar better varients for the US forces in theatre. Then give away similar var to allies as LL. I don't know exactly which var went where or I would tell you.


On the US beaches on D-Day the tank battalions landed with the following assault organization:

Battalion HQ
Battalion Forward CP with Bn CO, XO, and the complete Commo, S-2 and S-3 Section
HQ Tank Section
S-1 Section consisting of the battalion S-1 and one clerk
Assault Gun Platoon
Bn Reserve
Line Companies A, B, C, and D (line companies were minus their admin, mess and supply sections and had about one-half of their maintenance section)
Bn Maintenance Platoon (-) 1 T2 or T5 ARV, 1 1/4t, Bn Maintenance Officer
Bn Service Company (-) 7 2 –1/2t of fuel and lubricants section, Bn Transport Officer

UTAH Beach –
70th Tank Battalion
HQ Tank Section – 3 M4
Bn Reserve – 3 M4 (1 each from A, B and C Company)
Assault Gun Platoon (+) – 6 M4 Tankdozers, plus 2 manned by engineers (2 lost with LCT)
Co A – 16 M4A1-DD (4 lost when LCT struck a mine, 3 KO UNK)
Co B – 16 M4A1-DD (2 KO UNK)
Co C – 16 M4 (4 lost with LCT, 2 KO UNK)
Co D – 18 M5A1
A-1, 746th Tank Battalion – 5 M4 (1 KO AT/mine gun)

746th Tank Battalion (-)
HQ Tank Section – 3 M4
Assault Gun Platoon (+) – 6 M4
A Company (-) – 12 M4
B Company – 17 M4
C Company – 17 M4
D Company – 18 M5A1 (did not land until 0200 7 June)

OMAHA Beach –
741st Tank Battalion
HQ Tank Section – 3 M4
Bn Reserve – 3 M4 (1 each from A, B and C Company)
Assault Gun Platoon (+) – 6 M4 Tankdozers, plus 2 manned by the 610th Engineer Light Equipment Company (1 lost when LCT sank, 1 destroyed by AT gun)
Co A – 16 M4 (2 lost when LCT sank, 3 KO AT gun, 2 KO mine, 1 KO UNK, 5 tracked, 1 swamped)
Co B – 16 M4A1-DD (2 swam in, 3 beached from LCT, 1 then knocked out by AT gun; 11 sunk)
Co C – 16 M4A1-DD (all lost)
Co D – 18 M5A1 (no losses)
(9 other M4 were lost to unknown causes)

743rd Tank Battalion
HQ Tank Section – 3 M4
Bn Reserve – 3 M4 (1 each from A, B and C Company)
Assault Gun Platoon (+) – 6 M4 Tankdozers, plus 2 manned by the 61st Engineer Light Equipment Company (1 dozer swamped, 1 was unable to unload and 5 were lost to unknown causes)
Co A – 16 M4 (2 were unable to unload, 2 were swamped and 4 were lost to unknown causes)
Co B – 16 M4A1-DD (all beached, 7 lost to unknown causes)
Co C – 16 M4A1-DD (all beached, none lost to enemy fire, 1 tracked, 1 burned out when life raft on tank caught fire)
Co D – 18 M5A1 (no losses)

All medium tanks were M4 with appliqué armor or M4A1-DD, all with 75mm gun (although I have seen mention of M4A4 and M4A4 Tankdozers with some US units later in June and July). All were "dry" stowage types.

No M4 105mm assault guns were issued until 2 July (production began in February). Prior to that the Assault Gun Platoon (3 tanks) and the Assault Gun assigned to each of the line companies, were equipped with M4 or M4A1. As noted above the crews normally manned the tankdozers assigned to the battalions.

M4A3 105mm assault guns began unloading on the continent on 17 September, but were apparently not issued until October (production began in May)

No M4A1 (wet) 76mm were issued until 21-22 July (production began in January).

M4A3 (wet) 76mm began unlaoding in England on 19 June, but were apparently not issued until August (production had only begun in March).

M4A3 (wet) 75mm began unloading on the continent 13 August, but were apparently not issued until September (production had only begun in February).

M4A3E2 began unloading on the continent 18 September and were issued by the end of the month (production began in June)

Most M4A2 (dry) 75mm and M4A2 (wet) 76mm were either Lend-Leased or issued to USMC.

Most M4A4 and the few M4A6 built were Lend-Leased although some may have found there way into USA hands, possibly by reverse Lend-Lease..

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Post by Dima » 21 Oct 2004 23:57

Great information RichT090!
Was searching for it long time :D but w/o success.

What does 'M4 with appliqué armor' mean? Additional armor?
From yer post M4A3 was not used in June in Normandy at all, is it correct?
Bfr M4(105) arrived din't Tk Btns use M8 HMC for close support?

dima

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Benedick
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Post by Benedick » 22 Oct 2004 01:58

Thanks

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Post by RichTO90 » 22 Oct 2004 14:16

Dima wrote:Great information RichT090!
Was searching for it long time :D but w/o success.

What does 'M4 with appliqué armor' mean? Additional armor?


They were armor plates that were welded over the side sponsons to give additional protection to the sponson ammo racks in M4 dry stowage models in early 1944. They were produced locally and also as a kit. In addition, some use was made of fabricated armor pieces to increase protection on the front glacis over the driver and co-driver position in 56-degree front hull models. The plates can be seen in many photos.


From yer post M4A3 was not used in June in Normandy at all, is it correct?


Yep.

Bfr M4(105) arrived din't Tk Btns use M8 HMC for close support?

dima


No. The M8 HMC was only authorized in the Assault gun Companies of the armored regiments in the 2nd and 3rd AD (and the 1st AD in Italy until July when it converted to th new organization), in the armored infantry battalion assault gun platoon and in the Assault Gun Troop of the Mechanized Cavalry Squadrons.

Prior to the arrival of the M4-105mm the assault gun platoon (3 tanks) and the assault guns of the medium tank companies (1 each) were not equipped with tanks, except in the designated "assault" battalions for OVERLORD which were equipped with standard M4-75mm tanks.

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Post by Dima » 22 Oct 2004 16:09

thnx alot :D .

Sev more questions:
how many mm of that additional armor?

And how about M4A1 tanks? I thought they were used in large scales in Normandy?



[/quote]

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Post by Dima » 22 Oct 2004 16:18

thnx alot :D .

Sev more questions:
how many mm of that additional armor?

And how about M4A1 tanks? Thought they were used in large numbers in Normandy.

Did all Shermans have Smoke Mortars(discharger)?

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Post by RichTO90 » 22 Oct 2004 17:33

Dima wrote:thnx alot :D .

Sev more questions:
how many mm of that additional armor?


I forget exactly, but I belive the specification called for a 1/2 inch (circa 25mm) thickness on the standardized kit.

And how about M4A1 tanks? Thought they were used in large numbers in Normandy.


Yes they were. IIRC most of the medium tanks in the 2nd and 3rd AD were M4A1, as were some of the seperate battalions. But I doubt that exact numbers will ever be found. The distribution in the assault battalions on D-Day was pretty much as I showed, although a few of the M4 may actually have been M4A1 in the non DD units.

Did all Shermans have Smoke Mortars(discharger)?


All late-model production types with wet stowage did. I do not believe that the early production types in use on D-Day had them.

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