How to deal with partisans?

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Baltasar
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How to deal with partisans?

Post by Baltasar » 27 Oct 2004 18:24

This is less a what if and more a ethical discussion. I want to know how you guys would have handled the situation in occupied Europe in regard to the terrorists/partisans. What would you have done, what would be reasonable?

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Post by Obserwator » 27 Oct 2004 18:28

I want to know how you guys would have handled the situation in occupied Europe in regard to the terrorists/partisans

Occupied by whom and in what time period ? Furhtermore partisants and terrorists are two different terms.

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Post by Baltasar » 27 Oct 2004 18:40

Obserwator wrote:
I want to know how you guys would have handled the situation in occupied Europe in regard to the terrorists/partisans

Occupied by whom and in what time period ? Furhtermore partisants and terrorists are two different terms.
Remembering that I wrote occupied Europe, I'd think of WWII at first. Looking at the news from Iraq, I don't see that much difference between partisans and terrorists.

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Post by Doggowitz » 27 Oct 2004 19:53

The only reason why someone would call the Partisans of WW2 as Terrorists, can be a political one, trying to show them as unjust Criminals terrorising 'honest' Germans.

But infact there are significant Differences Between Terrorists and Partisans:

The Terrorists today (and in Iraq) are NOT Partisans.
Its not a resistance from Iraqis, but mainly from FOREIGN ARAB Terrorists, wich hated and fought against Western World long before the US came to Iraq.

The Partisans in WW2 had nothing to loose, lost their families and freedom.
The Behaviour of German Occupation upset them to resist against them. And the target were German SOLDIERS!

Terrorists of Today kill CIVILIANS all over the world for UNJUST Reasons.

If Partisans where Terrorists like today they would have come to Germany and killed thousands of German Woman and Children.

But they didn't.

The true Terrorists where the Nazis himself. They took hostages and killed them. And the Japanese even Beheaded their prisoners. Uh! Thats just like Terrorists today! 8O

Terrorists today are working in international Networks with accounts and big financeers.

Thats totally different from the situation in WW2, where local People just tried to resist the Terror that came with Nazism.

To call the Partisans, wich had good Reasons to resist, Terrorists is something very tasteless IMO.

The only thing they have common is that they fight against a superior Power, beside that Terrorism and Partisan Resistance are two different worlds.

BTW its quite interesting that the, as you call, "Terrorists" in WW2 (Jews, Poles, Russians) are today the one who fight against Terrorism (wich ideology is surprisingly similar to Nazism :roll: ).

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Post by AAA » 27 Oct 2004 20:43

In the USSR the soviets called them partisans, the axis referred to the same people as terrorists. The alternate favorite, then as now, is calling them "bandits" (negative), or perhaps "resistance" or "freedom fighters" (positive). Depending on which side you are on.

As an example - soviet partisan behaviour certainly ran the whole gamut - from terrorising their own people in order to destabilise the occupation, to blatant banditism, to fighting the 'evil' occupying axis and protecting their own folk (of course, noone wants to admit/remember any of the first two examples, unless its somebody else's partisans).

Balthasar framed the question in terms of policy in occupied europe - if we assume this meaning nazi german occupation policy in nazi occupied europe, terrorists/partisans IS an appropriate way to phrase it. Otherwise I agree with Obserwator - it should be a more specific question.

Having said that, I'll guess it is not likely that this thread will produce anything usefull anyway (just too incendiary).

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Post by Baltasar » 27 Oct 2004 22:48

@Doggowitz: The Partisans/Terrorists in WW2 not only targeted soldiers (I'm counting all kinds of armed and uniformed forces in here). Like Obserwator stated, lots of ambushes were launched eg in Poland. To think that only soldiers were the target is very naive, eg the people steering the locomotives almost certainly were no soldiers, may be they even were Poles themselves.

Furthermore, you're assuming that every act of terrorism in Iraq is carried out by people from foreign countries. I admit I haven't been there, but I watched some reports on english speaking TV stations and they often contacted cells/groups who at least stated they were Iraqi people.

Terrorists of Today kill CIVILIANS all over the world for UNJUST Reasons.
There're very rare occasions when it's just to kill somebody. Personally I wouldn't want to decide such things.

The Behaviour of German Occupation upset them to resist against them. And the target were German SOLDIERS!
Replace German with American and you've got a comment about the feelings of at least some of the Iraqi people. We only hear about the extreme extremists, but what about the "regular" mortarattacks and such. Attacks with a rather small risk for civilians.

If Partisans where Terrorists like today they would have come to Germany and killed thousands of German Woman and Children.
Ever read Clausewitz - Vom Kriege? Even though he propoese the "large" war, he also mentions the "small" war as substantial t the total effort. He also points out that the "small" war can only be carried out on friendly soild where the fighters/partisans/terrorists can melt into the crowd, where they are supported. That said, it'd be very unlikely for partisans to leave their own soil since one of their greatest advanteges is their own soil.

To call the Partisans, wich had good Reasons to resist, Terrorists is something very tasteless IMO.
The terrorists of today undoubtly must have a reason to do so, at least I don't think it's their way of having fun.

BTW its quite interesting that the, as you call, "Terrorists" in WW2 (Jews, Poles, Russians) are today the one who fight against Terrorism (wich ideology is surprisingly similar to Nazism).
Ah, as always the implied accusiation that I'm a Nazi as soon as I'm stating such things. Not really surprising from another German... I'm simply stunned by the common behaviour of people. Germans occupied the country, so everyone fighting against them must be a hero, since there can't possibly be crimes on their part... Especially some (nationalist?) members from other countries write in such a style.

BTW, I would also include Norwegian, Frensh, Dutch etc into that list. Simply whoever took up arms against any occupying force during WWII. This is by no means an insult to the partisans in general and the discussion about what is an act of terror and what's the work of partisans is slitghtly off-topic here.

@AAA: Sorry for not answering you directly, but I think you'll fish a response out on my answer to Doggowitz.

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Post by Obserwator » 27 Oct 2004 23:00

Like Obserwator stated, lots of ambushes were launched eg in Poland. To think that only soldiers were the target is very naive, eg the people steering the locomotives almost certainly were no soldiers,

Yes-for example driving Jewish prisoners in trains to concentration camps.Or polish children in wagons made for cattle.
Germans occupied the country, so everyone fighting against them must be a hero

Because the final goal of German Reich was extermination of milions of people and total anihalation of several nations that is valid point.Everyone fighting German Reich is a hero until proven otherwise.

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Post by Doggowitz » 27 Oct 2004 23:10

@baltasar

ahhh I see... The Poles, Russians, Dutch and Jews had in 1941 an international Terror-connection and planned to kill German Civilians, to overthrow entire Germany to make a Judaeo-Commie-Catholic Country out of it. :roll:

Im afraid you missed the point.

Terrorism not only means that a inferior Guerillia is attacking a military Power.

The Real Terrorist where the Nazis:
-Taking and killing Hostages
-Bombing and shelling cities
-Sabotage outside their boarders
-kidnapping people on the street
-Turning some Million People in to a Pile of Ashes

The Partisans just defended their lives. Point.

Most Iraqis are grateful to the Americans, only some hundred Fanatics, ex-Baathies and Foreign Arab Militias are making trouble.

They have total different motives and targets than the Partisans.

Its ridiculous to compare the Americans, Polish, British Forces to the Nazis.
The Coalition Forces are bringing chances of freedom and wealth to Iraqi People. Well thats not exactly the same as Making Millions of People to slaves and kill Millions of them because they are 'inferior'.

BTW the common German terminology was 'Bandit'.
Last edited by Doggowitz on 27 Oct 2004 23:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Christian W. » 27 Oct 2004 23:12

Didnt Partisans kill civilians who were working with Germans or supported them... :roll:

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Post by Doggowitz » 27 Oct 2004 23:19

Any sources were Civilians!(not Collaborating Police or Agents) were killed?

Beside that I cant see any similaritie between someone who kills innocent Women and Babies for Political-Ideological Reasons (Terrorists and Nazis) and someone who kills Occupation Soldiers and/or traitors from his country with the mission to resist againt opression and to fight for his naked Life, becuase he knows that his entire People/race is damned to perish.
Last edited by Doggowitz on 27 Oct 2004 23:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Christian W. » 27 Oct 2004 23:28

True, true but..

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Post by Musashi » 27 Oct 2004 23:57

Baltasar wrote:Looking at the news from Iraq, I don't see that much difference between partisans and terrorists.

I can differ them.
For example Sadr's militia and the Sunni in al-Fallujah are rebels or insurgents for me while men of al-Zarkawi, various Jordanian, Iranian and etc. mercenaries in connection with al-Qaeda or not are terrorists in my reports from Iraq.

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Post by Baltasar » 28 Oct 2004 06:57

Doggowitz wrote:ahhh I see... The Poles, Russians, Dutch and Jews had in 1941 an international Terror-connection and planned to kill German Civilians, to overthrow entire Germany to make a Judaeo-Commie-Catholic Country out of it.
Ridiculous. If you don't want to dicuss either this matter or the original matter in the first post, please spare me from any more post from you.


Its ridiculous to compare the Americans, Polish, British Forces to the Nazis.
The Coalition Forces are bringing chances of freedom and wealth to Iraqi People. Well thats not exactly the same as Making Millions of People to slaves and kill Millions of them because they are 'inferior'.
I can't recall myself calling the coalition alike with Nazis. I don't want to discuss the Iraqi war here, because we've already done that in plenty of other threads since the operation started, but as Musashi already pointed out, there are such "partisans" who start horrific actions against both soldiers and civilians. Which is why, I think, it's still referred to as the war against terror.

Any sources were Civilians!(not Collaborating Police or Agents) were killed?
Well, the Polish organisation (IPN I think) is surprisingly unfit to deliver dates of crimes against Germans during that time. If you take the sheer number of acts, it's outright impossible that those partisans didn't kill civilians. Additioionally, it depends on what exactly is a collaborative in your eyes and what is an agent.

Musashi wrote:I can differ them.
For example Sadr's militia and the Sunni in al-Fallujah are rebels or insurgents for me while men of al-Zarkawi, various Jordanian, Iranian and etc. mercenaries in connection with al-Qaeda or not are terrorists in my reports from Iraq.
Thanks. I take it then that Partisans have to fulfill two criteria? The have to be people from that country and they have to hit military targets only since killing civilians (of both sides) would make them terrorists?

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Post by Obserwator » 28 Oct 2004 07:20

If you take the sheer number of acts, it's outright impossible that those partisans didn't kill civilians.

Underground Army was under orders from Polish Govt. in exile. People giving information to Germans or people giving Jews to them(so called szmalcowniki) were tried by underground court to judge their guilt and sentecend for execution.As to the whole judicary process it probably was simplified due to war situation-as it is in every country during such times.Such activity isn't a war crime and is allowed by international law.


Well, the Polish organisation (IPN I think) is surprisingly unfit to deliver dates of crimes against Germans during that time

IPN has conducted several invistigations of Poles that were suspected of crimes.It is a very neutral and trusthworthy organisation.The lack of such cases in relation to German occupiers indicates there weren't any that classify as war crimes.

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Post by AAA » 28 Oct 2004 08:20

I don't think the thread was not intended to be an argument on the topic of blame or lack thereof associated with some particular national partisans - its gone quite off topic aalready.

So, let us exclude Poland and Polish partisans from the discussion - after all, occupant problems with anti-german partisan activity were comparatively negligible in Poland compared to Russia or the Balkans.

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