On the validity of the Nuernberg trials

[Billy Bishop]

David, what are your thoughts on the validity of the Nuremburg trials?

I've always wondered this.

[David Thompson]

Billy Bishop asked:

David, what are your thoughts on the validity of the Nuremburg trials?

After reading through the transcripts of both the IMT and NMT proceedings, and looking at every sort of argument about them while moderating this section of the forum, I think they were righteous. I think that, for the most part, they were conducted fairly and, for the most part, the defendants got what they deserved.

[Billy Bishop]

Billy Bishop asked:

David, what are your thoughts on the validity of the Nuremburg trials?

After reading through the transcripts of both the IMT and NMT proceedings, and looking at every sort of argument about them while moderating this section of the forum, I think they were righteous. I think that, for the most part, they were conducted fairly and, for the most part, the defendants got what they deserved.

Makes sense to me, althought people like Oswald Pohl, Herman Goering, Hans Fritzsche, Alfred Jodl, Hans Frank, Rudolf Hoess, always make me think twice about it.

It's hard for me to think that these trials were fair and just when there is strong evidence to suggest that many of these prisoners were tortured and/or forced to sign affidavits.

What do you think about these people I have mentioned?

[David Thompson]

Billy Bishop -- I don't mind discussing the IMT or NMT proceedings in regard to each of the separate defendants, but each of the cases against them has to stand or fall on its own merits. For that reason, each should have its own thread, so that the discussion doesn't get unnecessarily confusing.

I'll start with the folks that you mentioned. Many of the IMT judgments have already been posted in this section of the forum, so they're easy to find and read:

IMT judgment against Hans Frank
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=45085

IMT judgment against Hans Fritzsche
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=45086

IMT judgment against Hermann Goering
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=63165

IMT Judgment against Afred Jodl
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=29332

Of these, Fritzsche was acquitted, so I'm not sure what problems you have about the outcome in his case. The documentary evidence against Hans Frank is posted here at:

Documents on the Nazi occupation of Poland 1939-1944
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=54862

so you can read it for yourself. All of the testimony evidence against the defendants in the IMT proceedings is available on-line at the Avalon Project of the Yale Law School [ http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/imt.htm ], so if you have questions about it, it's no trick to dig it up and post it here for discussion. I have the 8-volume set of the American and British documentary exhibits used in the IMT trial, so if there are questions about some of those exhibits, they can be scanned and posted as well.

The US Army report of the Pohl or WVHA case can be seen on-line at:

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/pohl/pohl.htm and beginning at:
http://www.mazal.org/archive/nmt/05/NMT05-T0195.htm

The general findings of fact of the American military tribunal hearing the Pohl or WVHA case can be seen here at:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 875#567875

The concurring opinion of Judge Michael Musmanno in the Pohl or WVHA trial is posted here at:

The Nazi Concentration Camp System and the SS-WVHA
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=16879

The NMT judgment against Pohl can be seen at:

NMT judgment against Oswald Pohl
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 901#567901

Pohl's Auschwitz testimony is already posted, at:

Auschwitz testimony of SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Oswald Pohl
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=54569

Rudolf Hoess was convicted by a Polish Court, not by the IMT or NMT. There is a UN War Crimes Commission report of his trial available on-line in two parts at:

Trial of Rudolf Hoess
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/WCC/hoess.htm and
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/WCC/hoess2.htm

Here are some previous threads on Rudolf Hoess posted in this section of the forum:

Cracow statement of Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Hoess
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=52298
About Rudolf Hoess
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=12242
An Odd Statement by Rudolph Hoss, Commandant of Auschwitz
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=334
Höss´s staments about the KZ.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=23781
A snippet of Hoess testimony at the IMT, 15 April 1946
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=10559
Bush at Auschwitz Compared to What Hoess Said
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=23580

You also said:

It's hard for me to think that these trials were fair and just when there is strong evidence to suggest that many of these prisoners were tortured and/or forced to sign affidavits.

What strong evidence are you talking about? And who, specifically, are you talking about? Were they witnesses against Oswald Pohl, Herman Goering, Hans Fritzsche, Alfred Jodl, or Hans Frank? I know Rudolf Hoess claimed in his autobiography that once he was forced to get drunk and was then beaten by British guards, but he testified in his own behalf at his trial in Poland more than a year later, and his autobiography, written after he was extradited to Poland, is largely consistent with the affidavit(s) he signed and his testimony in the IMT proceedings.

Anyway, let's keep the discussions of general objections to the process used in the IMT and NMT proceedings here, and specific objections to the cases against each of the defendants you named on separate threads -- The ones where the IMT or NMT judgments are posted.

While I'm on the subject, when you use the term "validity," as in "the validity of the Nuremburg trials," what do you mean? Are you talking about whether the defendants were guilty as charged, or something else?

[MarkZahn]

I'm a little upset with the choice of Marcus Wendel to not allow cross-references to accusations against the NAZIs which strongly suggest that intelligence agencies fabricated evidence about the holocaust. There's actually quite a bit of inconsistencies and evidence showing that the holocaust was fabricated.

[Sergey Romanov]

Ah, another id^H^H denier.

There's actually quite a bit of inconsistencies and evidence showing that the holocaust was fabricated.

Such as?

[White Rose]

[...] accusations against the NAZIs which strongly suggest that intelligence agencies fabricated evidence about the holocaust.

Are these fact-free assertations and conjecture, or is there real evidence to back this up?

[David Thompson]

MarkZahn -- You said:

I'm a little upset with the choice of Marcus Wendel to not allow cross-references to accusations against the NAZIs which strongly suggest that intelligence agencies fabricated evidence about the holocaust. There's actually quite a bit of inconsistencies and evidence showing that the holocaust was fabricated.

Your initial premise ("the choice of Marcus Wendel to not allow cross-references to accusations against the NAZIs which strongly suggest that intelligence agencies fabricated evidence about the holocaust.") is false. See the 28-page thread "Claims of Forged, Altered or Missing Evidence" at:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=14260

See also:

Faked photos of Einsatzgruppe atrocities
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=32127 and

False ''Nazi War Crimes '' pictures.....
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=34142

Then read the section rules at:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=53962

particularly those on holocaust denial, topicality, claims and proof, and opinions before posting here again. Non-conforming posts are subject to deletion after warning. This is yours. If you don't want to comply with the section rules, be gone. If you post here again, try to relate your post in some intelligent and specific way to the subject being discussed -- in this case, the IMT and NMT trials:

Anyway, let's keep the discussions of general objections to the process used in the IMT and NMT proceedings here, and specific objections to the cases against each of the defendants you named on separate threads -- The ones where the IMT or NMT judgments are posted.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 857#567857

We prize intelligent, fact-based discussion here. For that reason, I will point out that your second premise ("accusations against the NAZIs which strongly suggest that intelligence agencies fabricated evidence about the holocaust"), even if you could establish that it was true, does not prove your third premise (There's actually quite a bit of inconsistencies and evidence showing that the holocaust was fabricated). This is akin to saying that because there are "accusations against the allies which strongly suggest that intelligence agencies fabricated evidence about WWII," that "there's actually quite a bit of inconsistencies and evidence showing that WWII was fabricated."