Perpetrators of the massacre in Katyn forest

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Panzermahn
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Perpetrators of the massacre in Katyn forest

Post by Panzermahn » 14 Dec 2004 12:29

[This thread was split off by the moderator from the thread "Soeren Kam 'should face trial.'" -- DT]

> It is shameful to pursue an old man

Why?


Because there are criminals who are more or less the same age are still living comfywithout any trials for them...You want names? Ummm....how about the epurators?

But fact is that all the still alive hangmen of Katyn have not been trialed

Name even one.


David Irving's Nuremberg The Last Battle, in the introduction, the author stated that in 1990, the KGB interviewed one of the NKVD man who participated in the murder at Katyn......This interview is not to determine whether he should be brought into trial but in fact the KGB was interested to know the technicalities of accomplishing such mass murder at Katyn..


> Who are we today to judge what happened at this time

Nobody invites you to judge, that's for certain.


Ostuf Charlemagne is not a judge, so he didn't give any judgement. It is only his opinion, not his judgement and everyone is entitled to one.

> So if somebody would like to pursue an Unconditionnal Hate forever , even for 80 old peoples ,then we should judge and sentence the murderers of BOTH SIDES !!!

Sure, though members of resistance and partisans were not murderers per se.


Are you sure?

> Let the old man in PEACE !!!!

Why should one let a murderer go free?


Soeren Kam had not even undergo any trial, so why labeled his as a murderer? (unless it's in your mind that every Waffen SS member was a murderer)...He is alleged (in the article) to murder someone...ARe you forgetting the dictum, innocent until proven guilty? Or perhaps you had mistaken for Uncle Iosif's, Beria's and Dzershinsky's dictum, guilty until proven innocent?

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Phil V
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Post by Phil V » 14 Dec 2004 12:47

It would depend on the individuals requisite capacity.

P

simsalabim
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Post by simsalabim » 14 Dec 2004 13:05

Ummm....how about the epurators?


Yes indeed. What about them? Or should we wait for the book again?

xcalibur
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Post by xcalibur » 14 Dec 2004 13:12

Panzermahn:

The introduction (occupying pp. 6-10) to Irving's Nuremberg:The Last Battle says nothing whatsoever about Katyn. In fact, the individual words "Katyn", "KGB", "NKVD" are not mentioned/used in the introduction at all.

Had you bothered to read it before erroneously citing it here you would have realised that the introduction is simply a four page statement about Irving's sources for the book.

Keep up the good work.

Panzermahn
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Post by Panzermahn » 14 Dec 2004 13:20

Panzermahn:

The introduction (occupying pp. 6-10) to Irving's Nuremberg:The Last Battle says nothing whatsoever about Katyn. In fact, the individual words "Katyn", "KGB", "NKVD" are not mentioned/used in the introduction at all.

Had you bothered to read it before erroneously citing it here you would have realised that the introduction is simply a four page statement about Irving's sources for the book.

Keep up the good work.


Xcalibur, i check back again...but i think i might be wrong..it's either Nuremberg The Last Battle of Hitler's War....

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Post by xcalibur » 14 Dec 2004 13:49

Panzermahn wrote:
Panzermahn:

The introduction (occupying pp. 6-10) to Irving's Nuremberg:The Last Battle says nothing whatsoever about Katyn. In fact, the individual words "Katyn", "KGB", "NKVD" are not mentioned/used in the introduction at all.

Had you bothered to read it before erroneously citing it here you would have realised that the introduction is simply a four page statement about Irving's sources for the book.

Keep up the good work.


Xcalibur, i check back again...but i think i might be wrong..it's either Nuremberg The Last Battle of Hitler's War....


Well, I know you're wrong as to the introduction to the Nuremburg book as I have just now re-read it.

I trust you will find the correct citation thus sparing the readership here the onerous task of wading through the rest of Irving's material?

xcalibur
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Post by xcalibur » 14 Dec 2004 20:39

Panzermahn wrote:
Panzermahn:

The introduction (occupying pp. 6-10) to Irving's Nuremberg:The Last Battle says nothing whatsoever about Katyn. In fact, the individual words "Katyn", "KGB", "NKVD" are not mentioned/used in the introduction at all.

Had you bothered to read it before erroneously citing it here you would have realised that the introduction is simply a four page statement about Irving's sources for the book.

Keep up the good work.


Xcalibur, i check back again...but i think i might be wrong..it's either Nuremberg The Last Battle of Hitler's War....


Panzermahn:

I had my secretary download from Irving's website the "Millenium Edition" of Hitler's War and have just read both the introduction and prologue. As with Nuremburg: The Last Battle there is no mention in either the introduction or the prologue of the words "Katyn", "KGB", "NKVD".

I am also curious to know what possible "technicalities" are involved in shooting people in the nape of the neck and throwing their corpses in a ditch. Seems to me that the KGB should have been able to work this one out without having to dig up some fossilized old NKVD executioner to instruct them on the method.

As to your answer to Sergey's question about naming the still alive NKVD men, your answer, "How about epurators", doesn't cut it: What was that, a guess? Ostuf Charlie alleged that there are still perpetrators of the Katyn massacre alive and at large. You supported this allegation. So tell us, who are they?

(And, btw, Sim is still waiting for you to explain and give evidence of the "bolshevik epurations" in Holland.

xcalibur
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Post by xcalibur » 14 Dec 2004 22:48

Name even one.


From Irving, Nuremburg: The Last Battle, page 186:

Most outrageously, on General Rudenko's insistence at the very last meeting of the prosecuting staffs the indictment was amended to include the murder in the Katyn forest of 11,000 Polish officers... The former NKVD officer, Pyotr Suprunenko, who signed the death warrant, still lives (1996) in Moscow as an old age pensioner.


Panzermahn, see how easy this was: A simple answer to a simple question without a lot of extraneous and irrelevant crap about "epurators" and the KGB.

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Post by Agadanik » 14 Dec 2004 23:12

xcalibur wrote:
From Irving, Nuremburg: The Last Battle, page 186:

Most outrageously, on General Rudenko's insistence at the very last meeting of the prosecuting staffs the indictment was amended to include the murder in the Katyn forest of 11,000 Polish officers... The former NKVD officer, Pyotr Suprunenko, who signed the death warrant, still lives (1996) in Moscow as an old age pensioner.


In the early 1990s, at least three men involved in the Katyn murder were still alive: Pyotr Soprunenko, Dimitr Tokarev and Mitrofan Siromyatnikov.
They were interrogated during the Soviet investigation, but not charged. None of them is alive today.
.

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Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 16 Dec 2004 21:44

Murderers of Katyn :

Of course I am talking of men who are STILL ALIVE . (I just don't want you to talk without the full information -As I said ,you will have the surprise tomorrow .)

Maybe tovaritch Kunikov will like to add something.

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Post by xcalibur » 16 Dec 2004 23:24

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:Sinsalabim-salabam :

"Yes indeed. What about them? Or should we wait for the book again?"

Just go to read the topic "Allied rapists" (try the motor -same section of war crimes ) and you will repeat us that . At last you will have no more excuses to play ignorant .

About death squads : Yes ,war is war and it is not nice . Death squads were used by both side : Sipo/SD -collaborationnists and also by terrorist resistants .

Do you want stories of death squads used by your "good side" ???

How about the slaughter of the Jourdan family at Voiron ,France ,1944 ,were even a grandmother (mother of milician local chief Jourdan ) and a TWO MONTHS OLD BABY (the son of milician chief Jourdan ) and his wife were slaughtered in their own house by a resistance death squad ??????

At last Soren Kam killed a political opponent ,not a two months old baby .

And what about the murder of anticommunist (but not collaborationnist ) priest Yann Vari Perrot in Bretagne ,France ,by FTP (communist resistant )
Jean Thépaut in 1943 ??????
Communist death squadrist Jean Thépaut died a natural dead in 1974 ,condecorated with the "medal of resistance " for his death squad job .So stop your hipocresies ,guys ,and start looking at the tree in your own eyes .

Mr Xcalibur : Nice to see you .Your ignorant posts makes me laugh again and again ....Let me go to my archives and I will give you a list ,tomorrow ,of the murderers of Katyn . Please ,don't start bitching about my supposed antisemitism ,'cause most of those murderers were jews .Not my guilt ,and you asked for it !
See you tomorrow with the info (I'm not home now ).

Yours truly Ostuf Charlie .


Nice to see you too, as always.

Well I'm certainly happy to see you laughing although I'm not sure what it is that you find so funny. Please do post the names of those presently living Katyn perpetrators as I'm sure the readership will find it most interesting. I will, of course have to ask for some documentary evidence that they are Jews as you allege. As for accusations of anti-semitism, why would I? You haven't said anything anti-semitic in this thread.

See you on the morrow,

X.

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Sergey Romanov
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Post by Sergey Romanov » 17 Dec 2004 04:33

> It is shameful to pursue an old man

Why?



Because there are criminals who are more or less the same age are still living comfywithout any trials for them


What does it have to do with a shameful pursuing of an old man? Nothing. Care to answer the original question?

But fact is that all the still alive hangmen of Katyn have not been trialed

Name even one.



David Irving's Nuremberg The Last Battle, in the introduction, the author stated that in 1990, the KGB interviewed one of the NKVD man who participated in the murder at Katyn......This interview is not to determine whether he should be brought into trial but in fact the KGB was interested to know the technicalities of accomplishing such mass murder at Katyn..


this man is dead. You haven't answered my question.


Sure, though members of resistance and partisans were not murderers per se.


Are you sure?


Of course.


> Let the old man in PEACE !!!!

Why should one let a murderer go free?



Soeren Kam had not even undergo any trial



fine, let's have a trial then :]]]

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Sergey Romanov
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Post by Sergey Romanov » 17 Dec 2004 04:38

Most outrageously, on General Rudenko's insistence at the very last meeting of the prosecuting staffs the indictment was amended to include the murder in the Katyn forest of 11,000 Polish officers... The former NKVD officer, Pyotr Suprunenko, who signed the death warrant, still lives (1996) in Moscow as an old age pensioner.


Soprunenko died in 1992. I'm not sure what this "death warrant" is supposed to be. So much for Irving's accuracy.

http://www.memo.ru/history/NKVD/kto/biogr/gb459.htm

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Post by xcalibur » 17 Dec 2004 04:54

Sergey Romanov wrote:
Most outrageously, on General Rudenko's insistence at the very last meeting of the prosecuting staffs the indictment was amended to include the murder in the Katyn forest of 11,000 Polish officers... The former NKVD officer, Pyotr Suprunenko, who signed the death warrant, still lives (1996) in Moscow as an old age pensioner.


Soprunenko died in 1992. I'm not sure what this "death warrant" is supposed to be. So much for Irving's accuracy.

http://www.memo.ru/history/NKVD/kto/biogr/gb459.htm


Yes, and Ostuf Chuckles calls my posts "ignorant".

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Sergey Romanov
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Post by Sergey Romanov » 17 Dec 2004 06:31

Yes, and Ostuf Chuckles calls my posts "ignorant".


Ironically, in the same posting in which he claimed that most of the Katyn killers were Jews. Simply unbelievable :roll:

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