Italian casaulties in Yugolsavia,April 1941-September 1943?

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G. Trifkovic
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Italian casaulties in Yugolsavia,April 1941-September 1943?

Post by G. Trifkovic » 13 Jan 2005 16:40

I did some search on the forum and on the web,but found nothing.

Thanks in advance,

Gaius

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Lupo Solitario
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Post by Lupo Solitario » 13 Jan 2005 16:58

I' ve always seen estimates around 10000

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G. Trifkovic
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Post by G. Trifkovic » 13 Jan 2005 17:06

KIA,WIA and MIA?

Gaius

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DrG
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Post by DrG » 13 Jan 2005 17:58

I've done a list of the losses according to several sources (but more or less, there aren't big discrepancies):

KIA and MIA 16,000
(R. De Felice, "Mussolini l'alleato - Vol.1", cap. 3, pag. 423)

KIA 9,065
MIA 6,306
WIA 15,160
Total 30,531
(http://www.vojska.net/ww2/italy)

KIA and MIA 15,371
(T. Francesconi, "Le Bande VAC in Dalmazia", pag. 18, source: USSME)

KIA 9,665
MIA 6,506
Total 16,171
(N. Arena, "RSI - Forze Armate della Repubblica Sociale - 1944", pag. 445, source: USSME)

KIA 9,000
MIA 6,000
WIA 15,000
Total 30,000
(F. Fatutta, "La campagna di Jugoslavia", pag. 172)

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G. Trifkovic
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Post by G. Trifkovic » 13 Jan 2005 18:01

Thanks DrG! How stupid of me! I searched vojska.net,Italy section but somehow I forgot to scroll down... :roll:

Cheers,

Gaius

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Lupo Solitario
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Post by Lupo Solitario » 13 Jan 2005 18:04

rommel_gaj wrote:KIA,WIA and MIA?

Gaius
My data was about KIA and I'd tell it agrees with DrG data where I see a certain agreement...
we could tell 9-10000 KIA and 6000 MIA more or less. WIA is always a difficult data to manage

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Dr Eisvogel
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Re: Italian casaulties in Yugolsavia,April 1941-September 19

Post by Dr Eisvogel » 14 Feb 2011 19:48

I have the data sent to Vladimir Žerjavić, author of the book Opsesije i megalomanije oko Jasenovca i Bleiburga: Gubici stanovništva Jugoslavije u drugom svjetskom ratu, Globus/Zagreb, 1992, by the Centro Culturale Italiano in Zagreb (Zagabria).
The Director of Centro Culturale Italiano, Fiorella Arrobbio-Piras attached the data sent to her by the Italian Ministry of Defense. Žerjavić reproduced in the book the facsimile of the letter sent to him on May 18th 1988 on the page 278:

Losses of the Italian army during WWII in Yugoslavia:
1.VI.1941.-7.IX.1943:
KIA - 7 231
MIA - 4 359

8.IX.1943->the end of the war
KIA - 3 436
MIA - 3 237

Total:
KIA - 10 667
MIA - 7 596

The losses in the period after 8.IX.1943. include the losses suffered:
- in the battles against the Germans
- by RSI
- by Italian soldiers who fought alongside Partisan formations

Possible KIA and MIA between 6.IV.1941. and 31.V.1941. are not included.

This was just a summary, not a literal translation of the letter.

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Re:

Post by P.108 » 15 Feb 2011 17:14

DrG wrote: KIA 9,065
MIA 6,306
WIA 15,160
Total 30,531
(http://www.vojska.net/ww2/italy)
These numbers represent the values given by the Historical office of the Italian Army, particularly by Loi in the book 'Le operazioni delle unità italiane in Jugoslavia', for the period april '41-september '43.It's necessary make, however, a clarification because the wounded's number presents a note: For the wounded, the number is an estimate based on 6 mounts data of the 2nd army augmented for the whole period of the occupation.

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Dr Eisvogel
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Re: Italian casaulties in Yugolsavia,April 1941-September 19

Post by Dr Eisvogel » 16 Feb 2011 09:39

Losses of the Italian army during WWII in Yugoslavia:
Total Italian losses in the period 1.VI.1941.-7.IX.1943:
KIA - 7 231
MIA - 4 359

Total Italian losses in the period 6.IV.1941.-(?).IX.1943.
KIA 9,065
MIA 6,306
WIA 15,160
Total 30,531
(http://www.vojska.net/ww2/italy)

By calculating the difference between the numbers first provided by myself (for the period 1.VI.1941.-7.IX.1943.) and numbers so kindly provided by DrG, we come to the numbers of:
1834 KIA
1947 MIA
in the period between 6.IV.1943. and 31.V.1941. with the end date for DrG numbers in September of 1943 not clearly stated, which offers a possibility that a significant percentage of these losses was suffered in September of 1943.

1.) Could we conclude that the numbers of 1834 KIA and 1934 MIA for the most part refer to the Italian losses suffered during the Invasion of Yugoslavia (known also as April War) 6.IV.1941.-17.IV.1941.?

2.) Are there precise numbers for the Italian losses (KIA and MIA) available for that particular campaign 6.IV.1941.-17.IV.1941.?

3.) Is there an Italian code name for their operations conducted against the Kingdom of Yugoslavia in April of 1941? (Something akin to the German Directive No 25)?

Dili
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Re: Italian casaulties in Yugolsavia,April 1941-September 19

Post by Dili » 16 Feb 2011 18:29

Could we conclude that the numbers of 1834 KIA and 1934 MIA for the most part refer to the Italian losses suffered during the Invasion of Yugoslavia (known also as April War) 6.IV.1941.-17.IV.1941.?
No. I never heard of enough combats to justify that numbers. The only harsh combats were in border North Albania and w/ the Zara mobile detachment but they were short and not many troops involved. I would say that KIA wouldn't be much more than 100 if at all .
This is just a idea i have, no hard data and i am willing to be proved wrong.

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Re: Italian casaulties in Yugolsavia,April 1941-September 19

Post by Dr Eisvogel » 16 Feb 2011 19:05

Dili wrote:
Could we conclude that the numbers of 1834 KIA and 1934 MIA for the most part refer to the Italian losses suffered during the Invasion of Yugoslavia (known also as April War) 6.IV.1941.-17.IV.1941.?
No. I never heard of enough combats to justify that numbers. The only harsh combats were in border North Albania and w/ the Zara mobile detachment but they were short and not many troops involved. I would say that KIA wouldn't be much more than 100 if at all .
This is just a idea i have, no hard data and i am willing to be proved wrong.
Mr. Dili, thank you on your input. There seems to be the lack of data, that's why I asked.

Anyway, if we use the notoriously unreliable wikipedia (Italian edition) the data presented for the Axis losses in April War without any source whatsoever to support them are the following:
Germany
151 KIA – 27,06% of the total losses
15 MIA
392 WIA
Total losses 558

Italy
Total losses 3324

If the Italians suffered the same death rate as the Germans, 27,06% of their losses would amount to 899 KIA.

However, since that is in the area of the pure speculation, I posted the question on this thread hoping to get the official Italian data.

Dili
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Re: Italian casaulties in Yugolsavia,April 1941-September 19

Post by Dili » 16 Feb 2011 23:04

No problem with your question.
I don't have access to official Italian data. Maybe that number includes also the troops in Albania fighting the Greeks. But i am just speculating.

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Re: Italian casaulties in Yugolsavia,April 1941-September 19

Post by P.108 » 18 Feb 2011 12:09

Loi's book was published in 1978, the letter to Fiorella Arrobbio-Piras is dated 1988, probably the historical office in the ten years that there are between the two documents has redone the calculations.

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Re: Italian casaulties in Yugolsavia,April 1941-September 19

Post by Sid Guttridge » 18 Feb 2011 12:52

It is not widely known that the Yugoslavs launched an attack into northern Albania in April 1941 and it was here that the bulk of the ±2,000 Italian casualties were suffered during the campaign. Usually only the ±300 suffered by the motorized units comming down the Adriatic Coast from Trieste in Itally are mentioned.

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Re: Italian casaulties in Yugolsavia,April 1941-September 19

Post by Dr Eisvogel » 18 Feb 2011 14:20

P.108 wrote:Loi's book was published in 1978, the letter to Fiorella Arrobbio-Piras is dated 1988, probably the historical office in the ten years that there are between the two documents has redone the calculations.
You have to take note of the fact that Loi's book covers the whole period between April of 1941 and September of 1943, while the data provided in the letter of Fiorella Arrobbio-Piras leaves out the data for April and May of 1941 and also for the period between 8.IX.1943-30.IX.1943.

So, Loi's data might be totally correct, but I am still looking for the breakdown of the data (KIA and MIA) for the April War 6.IV.1941.-17.IV.1941..

P.S. I would sure like to hear that the real losses were smaller, because we are speaking about human lives.

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