Heavy Flak Guns Of The Allies ?

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Reich Ruin
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Heavy Flak Guns Of The Allies ?

Post by Reich Ruin » 22 Jan 2005 04:51

What was thee most foremost flak guns used by the Americans, British and the Soviets ? Sorry if this was asked before bit Im very curious about what type of AA the Allies and the Soviets would use against Axis planes and how the big guns of the Allies compare to the Axis. Like for instance did any of the Allied or Soviet forces have four barreled AA guns like the German flakvierling, etc ?

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Post by Michael Emrys » 22 Jan 2005 05:21

Are AA guns on naval ships included in the discussion? If so, I suppose the 5"/38 DP on USN ships may be the biggest. They also had quad 40mm Bofors.

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David Lehmann
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Post by David Lehmann » 22 Jan 2005 09:06

Hello,

If you feel interested I can add elements concerning the French AA artillery in May/June 1940.

AA Machineguns
Many FM 24/29 LMGs, Saint-Etienne Mle1907, Hotchkiss Mle1914 and MAC Mle1931 were used as AAMGs in single and twin mounts on the battlefield. They were often the single AA protection for motorized columns. The 25mm SPAA guns were not very common.

Bitube de 13.2mm Mle1930 (13.2mm twin AA gun)
Caliber : 13.2x99 mm
Barrel length : 1670 mm (1000 mm rifling)
Battle-station weight : 375 kg
Rate of fire : 900 rpm (2x 450rpm)
Muzzle velocity : 800 m/s
Magazine : 60 round magazines
Traverse : 360°
Elevation: 0°, +90°
Capacity : 2x30 rounds magazines
Practical range : 2500m against ground targets and 1600m against aircrafts
Penetration : 20mm /0° at 400m
Could also be found also on quadruple mounts.
Crew of 1 NCO and 8 men.
The aiming device consists in a 12x magnification telemeter and a 1x magnification sight with big field of view.

Canon de 20mm HS404 (Hispano Suiza)
Caliber : 20x110 mm
Battle-station weight : 280 kg
Rate of fire : 600 rpm
Muzzle velocity : 850-880 m/s
Magazine : 60 round magazines
Traverse : 360°
Elevation: -10°, +75°
Practical range : 1200 m (maximum range about 5500 m)
This AA gun is most commonly found in the French aircrafts (MS.406, D.520, MB.152) but also used on wheeled ground mounts for the defence of the airfields.

Canon de 20mm Mle1939 Oerlikon
Caliber : 20x100RB mm
Barrel length : 140 cm
Battle-station weight : 300 kg
Rate of fire : 460 rpm
Muzzle velocity : 840 m/s
Magazine : 20 round magazines
Traverse : 360°
Elevation: -10°, +75°
Practical range : 1200 m (maximum range about 5500 m)
In theory, each infantry regiment was to have 12x 20mm CA Mle39 (Oerlikon), in 3 platoons of 4 guns. In a normal infantry regiment, one AA platoon with four 20mm CA Mle39 (Oerlikon) AA guns was part of each of the 3 battalion support companies (CAB), as one of its 4x MG platoons, normally armed with 8mm Hotchkiss Mle1914 MGs, but specialized in AA protection was armed with the 20mm AA guns. In a motorized infantry regiment, all three 20mm AA platoons were INSTEAD assigned to the regimental MG and weapons company (CRME).
But even this moderate level of weapons allocation was far from achieved by May 1940. Ferrard reports a total delivery of only 237x 20mm CA Mle39 by 10th May 1940.

Canon de 25mm Mle1938 Hotchkiss - 2.5 cm Flak Hotchkiss 38 (f)
Caliber : 25x163 mm
Barrel length : 3000 mm (1500 mm rifling)
Battle-station weight : 900 kg
Weight traveling : 1100 kg
Rate of fire : 250 rpm
Muzzle velocity : 900 m/s (HE and HET) and 875 m/s (AP)
Magazine : 15 rounds magazines
Traverse : 360°
Elevation: -7°, +90°
Maximum range : 7500 m, vertical effective range 2500 m
Ammunition types : HE (250g projectile), AP (300g projectile), Phosphorus (rare)
Penetration : 35mm/0° at 500m
Crew of 1 NCO and 8 men.
During the 1930s Hotchkiss developed a 25mm AA gun that was adopted by France, Japan (25mm type 96 and mainly in the navy), Russia and Romania. 574 in service in the French Army in May 1940 (+147 Mle1940 mainly in the French air force for the protection of the airfields, fixed mounts). In single and/or twin barrel versions. This weapon was intended to have a dual purpose role and AP rounds for anti-tank use were issued (penetration of about 35mm at 500m). Captured guns were used by the Germans as 2.5cm FlaK Hotchkiss 38 and 39. The shell is 25x163mm it is not the same that the shell used in the 25 mm AT guns, which is 25x194R and used for 2.5 cm L/72 Puteaux PaK 112 (f) and Hotchkiss PaK 113 (f). Very stable and accurate, the 25mm Hotchkiss AA guns remained in service until the beginning of the 50's in France.

Canon de 25mm Mle1939 Hotchkiss - 2.5 cm Flak Hotchkiss 39 (f)
Caliber : 25x163 mm
Barrel length : 3000 mm (1500 mm rifling)
Battle-station weight : 850 kg
Weight traveling : 1150 kg
Rate of fire : 250-300 rpm
Muzzle velocity : 900 m/s (HE and HET) and 875 m/s (AP)
Magazine : 15 rounds magazines
Traverse : 360°
Elevation: -3°, +110°
Maximum range : 7500 m, vertical effective range 2500 m
Ammunition types : HE (250g projectile), AP (300g projectile), Phosphorus (rare)
Penetration : 35mm/0° at 500m
Crew of 1 NCO and 8 men.

Canon de 25mm Mle1940 Hotchkiss (fixed mounts on airfields)
Caliber : 25x163 mm
Barrel length : 2220 mm (1500 mm rifling)
Battle-station weight : 699 kg
Rate of fire : 350-400 rpm
Muzzle velocity : 900 m/s (HE and HET) and 875 m/s (AP)
Magazine : 15 rounds magazines
Traverse : 360°
Elevation: -5°, +90°
Maximum range : 7500 m, vertical effective range 2500 m
Ammunition types : HE (250g projectile), AP (300g projectile), Phosphorus (rare)
Penetration : 35mm/0° at 500m

Canon de 25mm Mle1940J Hotchkiss (25mm twin AA gun)
Caliber : 25x163 mm
Barrel length : 2 barrels of 2200 mm (1500 mm rifling)
Battle-station weight : 1400 kg
Weight traveling : 1800 kg
Rate of fire : 560-600 rpm
Muzzle velocity : 900 m/s (HE and HET) and 875 m/s (AP)
Magazine : 15 rounds magazines
Traverse : 360°
Elevation: -5°, +100°
Maximum range : 7500 m, vertical effective range 2500 m
Ammunition types : HE (250g projectile), AP (300g projectile), Phosphorus (rare)
Penetration : 35mm/0° at 500m

Canon de 37mm Mle1929/1935 Schneider
Caliber : 37x218 mm
Barrel length : 222 cm
Battle-station weight : 1340 kg
Rate of fire : 175 rpm
Muzzle velocity : 840 m/s (projectile of 725g)
Magazine : 8 rounds clip
Traverse : 360°
Elevation: 0° to +80° on ground mount
Range : 5300m
Mainly used by the French navy but rapidly replaced by the 25mm and 40mm AA guns, in single and twin mount. 20 of these guns were used by the army and deployed to defend the area of Paris.

Canon de 40mm Bofors Mle1938/1939
Caliber : 40x311R mm
Length of weapon : Traveling 625 cm - In firing position 518 cm
Barrel length : 2500 mm (1930 mm rifling)
Battle-station weight : 1920 kg
Rate of fire : 140 rpm
Muzzle velocity : 850 m/s
Magazine : 4 or 8 rounds clips
Traverse : 360°
Elevation : -5°, +90°
Maximum range : Horizontal range 9000 m, Vertical range 5000 m
Sight system : Various sight arrangements
Ammunition types : HE-tracer, AP, AP-tracer (projectile 0.995 kg)

Canon CA 75mm PF Mle1915 (fixed on plateform) - 7.5 cm Flak M15(f) -
Calibre : 75x350R mm
Barrel length : 2720 mm (2230 mm rifling)
Battle-station weight : 2219 kg
Rate of fire : 12 rpm
Muzzle velocity : 580 m/s (projectile of 6 kg)
Traverse : 360°
Elevation : 0° to +75°
Maximum range : 6500 m

Autocanon de 75mm Mle1913/34 (self-propelled)
Calibre : 75x350R mm
Barrel length : 2720 mm (2230 mm rifling)
Weight : 5880 kg
Rate of fire : 12 rpm
Muzzle velocity : 580 m/s (projectile of 6 kg)
Traverse : 237°
Elevation : 0° to +70°
Maximum range : 6500 m

Canon CA 75mm Mle1917/34 (Schneider) - 7.5 cm Flak M17/34(f) -
Caliber : 75x518R mm
Barrel length : 4000 mm (3250 mm rifling)
Battle-station weight : 4800 kg
Weight traveling : 4940 kg
Rate of fire : 20 rpm
Muzzle velocity : 700 m/s
Traverse : 360°
Elevation : 0° to +70°
Maximum range : 8000 m

Canon CA 75mm Mle1930 - 7.5 cm Flak M30(f) -
Calibre : 75x518R mm
Barrel length : 4000 mm (3250 mm rifling)
Battle-station weight : 3800 kg
Weight traveling : 4200 kg
Rate of fire : 20 rpm
Muzzle velocity : 700 m/s
Traverse : 360°
Elevation : -1° to +70°
Maximum range : 8000 m

Canon CA 75mm Mle1932 - 7.5 cm Flak M32(f) -
Caliber : 75x518R mm
Barrel length : 4050 mm (3250 mm rifling)
Battle-station weight : 3800 kg
Weight traveling : 5300 kg
Rate of fire : 25 rpm
Muzzle velocity : 700 m/s
Traverse : 360°
Elevation : -5° to +70°
Maximum range : 8000 m
Also adopted by Belgium under the name "75 mm ABS/FRC modèle 1936"

Canon CA 75mm Mle1933 - 7.5 cm Flak M33(f) -
Caliber : 75x518R mm
Barrel length : 4000 mm (3250 mm rifling)
Battle-station weight : 3730 kg
Weight traveling : 4200 kg
Rate of fire : 20 rpm
Muzzle velocity : 700 m/s
Traverse : 360°
Elevation : 0° to +75°
Maximum range : 8000 m

Canon CA 75mm Mle1939 (Schneider)
Caliber : 75x518R mm
Barrel length : 4000 mm (3250 mm rifling)
Battle-station weight : 3250 kg
Rate of fire : 20 rpm
Muzzle velocity : 700 m/s
Traverse : 360°
Elevation : 0° to +90°
Maximum range : 8000 m

Canon CA 90 mm Mle1939 (Schneider) – 9.0 cm Flak M39(f) -
Caliber : 90x673R mm
Barrel length : 4500 mm (3780 mm rifling)
Battle-station weight : 5760 kg
Rate of fire : 15 rpm
Muzzle velocity : 810 m/s (projectile of 9.5kg)
Traverse : 360°
Elevation : -4° to 80°
Maximum range : 11000 m
Used on the ground but mainly by the French navy, in single and twin mount. Five mobile batteries were deployed around Paris and had shells enabling them to be used in direct AT fire. Some were used in direct AT fire in North Africa initially against the landing US troops in November 1942.

Canon de 94 mm Vickers
Caliber : 94x672 mm
Barrel length : 4960 mm 4690 mm rifling)
Battle-station weight : 8900 kg
Rate of fire : 10 rpm
Muzzle velocity : 792 m/s
Traverse : 360°
Elevation : -5° to 80°
Maximum range : 9500 m

Canon de 105 mm CA Mle1917 and Mle1917/34 PF (fixed on plateform)
Caliber : 105 mm
Barrel length : 2980 mm (2350 mm rifling)
Battle-station weight : 5000 kg
Rate of fire : 8 rpm
Muzzle velocity : 555 m/s
Traverse : 360°
Elevation : 15° to 84°
Maximum range : 12500 m (6000m vertical)

Canon de 130 mm Mle1935
Caliber : 130 mm
Barrel length : 5850 mm
Rate of fire : 14 rpm
Muzzle velocity : 800 m/s (projectile of 32 kg)
Maximum range : 12000 m
Only used on the ships of the French navy, intended to be developed for ground units but it could not be done before the armistice.

Canon de 152 mm Mle1930/1936
Caliber : 152 mm
Barrel length : 8250 mm
Rate of fire : 4 rpm (8-12 rpm because 2-3 guns are installed in each turret)
Muzzle velocity : 870 m/s (projectile of 55 kg)
Maximum range : 21000 m (vertical range of 7000 m)
Only used on the ships of the French navy, could fire on ships but it was also intended for AA fire with an elevation up to 60°.

------------

In 1940, the French army France had 20x 94mm Vickers AA guns beside about 40x Schneider 90mm AA guns (Mle1926/1930 and 1939) and about 135x 105mm Mle1915/1934 AA guns.
From the 1695x 75mm AA guns listed, 876x are based on the 75mm Mle1897 gun and fire the 75x350R shell (75mm Mle1913/34, Mle1915/34 and Mle1915). The other 819x 75mm AA guns are based on the 75mm Mle1928 Schneider gun and fire the 75x837R shell (75mm Mle1917/34, Mle1930, Mle1932, Mle1933 and Mle1928/39). That makes a total of 1890 potentially available heavy AA guns. In comparison at the same time, the Germans had more than 2500 8.8cm and 10.5cm AA guns.
The French army had only about 270 light AA guns (13.2mm) and 1331 medium AA guns (20-40mm) available in May 1940. Further deliveries led to about 1900 medium AA guns available. In comparison, the Wehrmacht on 10th May 1940 had about 6500 2.0cm and 3.7cm AA guns covering the troops advancing in France. These AA guns caused the main losses in the French air force while the Luftwaffe encountered much less AA fire.

An other problem for the French army was a BIG lack in AA ammunition.

Below is a simplified table of the situation of the AA guns in metropolitan territory (screen capture of my word document), according to the researches of Stéphane Ferrard.

Regards,

David
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Tony Williams
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Re: Heavy Flak Guns Of The Allies ?

Post by Tony Williams » 22 Jan 2005 09:39

Reich Ruin wrote:What was thee most foremost flak guns used by the Americans, British and the Soviets ? Sorry if this was asked before bit Im very curious about what type of AA the Allies and the Soviets would use against Axis planes and how the big guns of the Allies compare to the Axis. Like for instance did any of the Allied or Soviet forces have four barreled AA guns like the German flakvierling, etc ?
First the light AAA:

British: 20mm Oerlikon and Polsten, 40mm Bofors. I have seen Polsten mountings with up to six guns, but I don't know if they saw service. By the time the British Army was well-equipped to deal with planes attacking their units, the Luftwaffe didn't have the planes left to do it...The RN used the same guns, with HMS Vanguard (not completed until after WW2) having six-barrel Bofors mountings. During the war, the RN's 2 pdr (40mm) AA was available in quad and 8-barrel mountings.

US: .5 inch (including quad powered mountings), 37mm, 40mm. USN also used 1.1 inch quad (28mm)

USSR: 25mm, 37mm (mainly single mountings)

Medium/heavy AAA

British: 3 inch (76mm), 3.7 inch (94mm - two different types), 4.5 inch (114 mm), 5.25 inch (133mm). They also had some 8 inch (203mm) ex-naval guns on the south coast which had a high elevation, and reportedly engaged V-1s on at least one occasion - must have been something to see!

US: 90mm (120mm later)

USSR 85mm, 100mm.

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Post by Tony Williams » 22 Jan 2005 09:50

David Lehmann wrote:Hello,

If you feel interested I can add elements concerning the French AA artillery in May/June 1940.

Canon de 37mm Mle1929/1935 Schneider
Caliber : 37x218 mm
Barrel length : 222 cm
Battle-station weight : 1340 kg
Rate of fire : 175 rpm
Muzzle velocity : 840 m/s (projectile of 725g)
Magazine : 8 rounds clip
Traverse : 360°
Elevation: 0° to +80° on ground mount
Range : 5300m
Mainly used by the French navy but rapidly replaced by the 25mm and 40mm AA guns, in single and twin mount. 20 of these guns were used by the army and deployed to defend the area of Paris.
Thanks for posting that list, David. I do have a question about the entry above, since I have been trying to track down the mysterious '37mm Schneider' for years.

I know of two different cartridges used by French 37mm AA guns, both of them for the Navy: the 37x277R which was used in the manually-loaded M1925 and M1933 (and also in an Army fortification anti-tank gun), and the 37x218R used in the automatic Hotchkiss M1935, which was still at the test and evaluation stage in 1940. It was apparently fitted to the aviso Amiens, and saw action at Le Havre in June 1940.

What I have been trying to track down is the Army's Schneider M1930, which I know was an automatic AA gun which was used in the defence of Paris as you describe. After much searching, I had come to the conclusion that this fired the same 37x277R ammo as the M1925 and M1933, but I have been unable to confirm this for sure.

Your data clashes with mine in various respects - everything seems to be mixed up! I would like to get to the bottom of this and would appreciate knowing more about your sources.

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David Lehmann
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Post by David Lehmann » 22 Jan 2005 11:39

Hello Tony,

Your data may be more accurate and right since I had a headache trying to figure out which 37mm AA gun exactly existed, which was which one etc. I may have mixed several things together since all what I found never precised the Mle???? and generally just indicated 37mm Schneider AA gun. Don't even talk about the ammo.

If we could clear and complete some things together it would be really great.

For these characteristics they are from Stéphane Ferrard's books (ground based gun ... therefore army model I guess) :
Battle-station weight : 1340 kg
Rate of fire : 175 rpm
Muzzle velocity : 800 m/s
Magazine : 8 rounds clip
Traverse : 360°
Elevation: 0° to +80° on ground mount
Max VERTICAL range : 3000m
I can't remember from where I had the other elements yet, but for the shellcase length I am pretty sure it was more a personnal conclusion from various things I saw, may be completely wrong.

Indeed I think there are :
37x201R (in the air force I think)
37x219R (your 218R )
37x222R
37x278R (your 277R)
37x300R

For the 37mm AT gun used in the Maginot Line (and also tested on tanks as prototype) we have :
37mm Mle1934 RF
- Obus de rupture Mle1936 (APBC)
- Obus explosif Mle1938 (HE)

From an under construction table showed by Daniel Gilberti the Schneider 37mm AA gun would even fire the 37x300R ... could explain the 840 m/s I gavce, but impossible now to find from where I had these values.
He also showed me a drawing about the possible projectile for this gun ... 165mm long and weighted 600g.
But I am not sure of all these things.

In fact at the beginning we have the Navy 37mm Mle1925 (Hotchkiss + APX ?) firing the Mle1924 and Mle1925 HE shells.
The projectile weights 750g including 233g explosive.
V° = 800 m/s
That would be a 37x277R I think.

Then there is the Schneider 37mm AA gun in the 30's but I didn't understand exactly which Mle ???
This guns was not very successful because of the introduction of the 25mm AA guns and the arrival of the 40mm Bofors AA gun. In fact France wanted to buy 40mm Bofors guns but nobody could supply. France tried to buy Polish Bofors guns built under licence (there was a proposition to exchange some Renault D2 tanks and other stuff) but they were already supplying UK which had a shortage of AA guns. Therefore France bought the licence to built them ... but the war arrived more rapidly as expected (France awaited to fight only in 1941).

I don't know exactly what is the ammo for the Schneider AA gun ... Daniel Gilberti will probably have some elements to help us.

Best regards,

David

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MK108
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37 mm French

Post by MK108 » 22 Jan 2005 22:10

Hem, i'm sorry, but i have not the head in ammos in this time, and personnaly if i have often a good stock of datas, i have not study this materials and sometimes i forget certains détails ...

For 37 frenchs materials all mixeds i found coming from a list of cases specimens in a french collection :
37x 94 R composites 3 parts, classicals and primers 31 or 37 etc ... etc ...
37x120r Hotchkiss (old model Hotchkiss patent paris)
37x149r Mle38
37x149r Hstp : D 37 A no more datas
37x189r Hstp : 37.COVENTRY no more datas (bottlenecked brass)
37x201r All for aircrafts Tc 1902 and Marine Tc mle 1937 mecanic or electrical primer
37x219r mod 1935 Hstp 37-1935
37x224r mod 1925 Right case not bottlenecked : Shorttened !!! Hstp : 37-25 certainly special use (salut or blank or second hand ...)
37x224r mod 1925 Right case not bottlenecked : Shorttened !!! Hstp : 37-1925 certainly special use (salut or blank or second hand ...)
37x277r mod 1925 bottlenecked Hsttp : 37-25 other Hstp : 37-1925
37x277r mod 1934 bottlenecked Hsttp : 37 Mle 1934
37x300r Bottlenecked Brass case Hstp : 37 SCHNEIDER, perhaps (certainly XPL specimen)
( i dont know more about this ammo, it was in a collection from one friend in france, i need ask to for obtain more info and picture .. )

Best Regards, Dan

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Reich Ruin
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Post by Reich Ruin » 22 Jan 2005 23:17

Thanks for the replies ! Any pics of the heavy AA ? I heard for light AA the 40mm Bofors packed a punch.

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David Lehmann
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Post by David Lehmann » 22 Jan 2005 23:49

Oh yes I have photos of the French AA guns ... but you are probably more interested in the other countries ;)
All these photos have been published in the books by Stéphane Ferrad.
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Post by David Lehmann » 23 Jan 2005 11:01

Hello,

Concerning the issue with the French 37mm AA guns and after exchanges and discussion we came grossly to this figure but many point remain uncertain, innacurate and foggy (Tony correct me if I wrote something wrong from our discussion) :

Canon de 37mm L/50 Mle1925 (single) and Mle1933 (twin) (Hotchkiss)
Caliber : 37x278R mm
Rate of fire : 30-42 rpm per gun (only semi-automatic and manually loaded, therefore inadequate)
Muzzle velocity : 850 m/s (HE projectile of 725g or HET projectile of 738g, with about 230g explosive)
Traverse : 360°
Only used by the French navy.

Canon de 37mm L/48 Mle1935 (twin or quadruple) (Hotchkiss)
Caliber : 37x219R mm
Rate of fire : 330 rpm (twin) or 660 rpm (quadruple)
Muzzle velocity : 825 m/s (HE/HET projectile of 831g with 210g explosive)
Magazine : 6 rounds clip
Traverse : 360° (mounting electrically powered for training but not for elevation)
Elevation: +10° to 85°
Range : 8000m
Only used by the French navy.

Canon de 37mm Mle1930 (twin or single) (Schneider)
Caliber : 37x278R mm or perhaps 37x300R prototype ammunition
Battle-station weight : 1340 kg (single ground mount)
Rate of fire : 175 rpm (350 rpm for the twin version)
Muzzle velocity : 800-850 m/s
Magazine : 8 rounds clip
Traverse : 360°
Elevation: 0° to +80° (single ground mount)
Range : vertical effective range 3000 m
Only 20 delivered on 10th May 1940. These guns were all used by the army and deployed in 5 batteries of 4 guns to defend the area of Paris in May/June 1940.

Regards,

David

Here is a photo of a 25mm Mle1939 AA gun and an other of this rare 37mm Schneider AA gun (source S. Ferrard book).
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MK108
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37 x 300 R

Post by MK108 » 25 Jan 2005 23:07

The Hstp for 37 x 300 R Schneider, perhaps a prototyp ...
Bsrg, Dan
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Post by David Lehmann » 25 Jan 2005 23:50

Thanks for your help Dan :)

Regards,

David

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