So called "Polish concentration camps".

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Musashi
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So called "Polish concentration camps".

Post by Musashi » 05 Feb 2005 22:07

I'd like to turn your attention to a one problem - the responsibility for killing people in the German Nazi camps in Poland is more and more often shifted to Poles. Many morons in the world say such bullshits like below straighforwardly. I can't provide links to Polish articles on that, because I was busy some time ago and did not expect these articles would be moved to archives and paid after a few days.

Pani Schindler, wdowa po niemieckim przemysłowcu uwiecznionym w filmie Lista Schindlera, została wyróżniona przez argentyński rząd za swój udział w ratowaniu Żydów z polskich obozów koncentracyjnych (australijskie radio ABC, 1999r.)

Mrs. Schindler, a widow after a German industrialist perpetuated in the film Schindler's list has been favoured by Argentinian Government for her participation in rescuing Jews from Polish concentration camps.
[Australian ABC radio, 1999]


Moja babcia zginęła, a ciotka ledwo uszła z życiem w polskim obozie koncentracyjnym (Michael Howard, przywódca brytyjskich konserwatystów, 2004r.)

My grandmother died and an aunt barely saved her neck in a Polish concentration camp.
[Michael Howard, the leader of British conservatists, 2004]

Papież pochodzący z kraju, który wymyślił Auschwitz (belgijskie Le Soir Illustre, 2000r.)

A pope becoming from a country, which invented Auschwitz...
[Belgian Le Soir Illustre, 2000]

Film Pianista (...) o muzyku, który przeżył w nazistowskiej Polsce, został nagrodzony na festiwalu w Cannes (The Australian 2002r.)

The film "The pianist" (...) about a musician, who survived in Nazi Poland has been awarded in The Festival of Cannes.
[The Australian, 2002]

Polish embassies in all over the world intervened almost 50 times in January sending protests to various institutions, radios, newspapers, etc. Some journalists apologized and corrected information, however some of them did not see anything incorrect in writing such craps.

Such craps were written in Corriere de la Sera, the Guardian, the Independent, der Spiegel and broadcasted on Canadian and Australian television.

George, a Pole who lives in Sydney has a daughter who goes to Australian school. According to her having read an Australian history handbook she learnt about "Polish concentration camps", while it was not written even a single word "German" or "Germans" in this chapter.

"Chcielibyśmy przypomnieć wszystkim, którzy nie znają faktów lub nieostrożnie dobierają słowa, jak to było w przypadku niektórych mediów, że Auschwitz-Birkenau i inne obozy śmierci jak Bełżec, Chełmno, Majdanek, Sobibór i Treblinka, zostały zaprojektowane, zbudowane i kierowane przez nazistowskie Niemcy i ich sojuszników" -
"Obozy zostały zlokalizowane w okupowanej przez Niemcy Polsce, kraju z największą wówczas populacją Żydów, ale stanowczo nie były »polskimi obozami«. Nie jest to tylko kwestia semantyczna. Chodzi o historyczną uczciwość i dokładność" - czytamy w oświadczeniu, w którym przypomniano poza tym, że w Auschwitz przetrzymywani byli także Polacy i że Polska była pierwszą ofiarą agresji Trzeciej Rzeszy.

"Wszelkie przekłamania na temat roli Polski w czasie II wojny światowej, umyślne czy przypadkowe, są jak najbardziej godne pożałowania i nie powinny pozostać bez odpowiedzi"

http://info.onet.pl/1047289,12,item.html (in Polish)
[My translation]:
The proclamation of the American Jews' Committee:
David A. Harris, the director of AJC wrote:We would like to mind everybody, who don't know the facts or careless choose words, as it was in case of some media, that Auschwitz-Birkenau and the other death camps like Belzhec, Chelmno, Maidanek, Sobibor and Treblinka have been designed, built and managed by Nazi Germany and its allies. The camps were located in occupied by Germany Poland, the country with the largest Jews' population at the time, but they absolutely were not "Polish camps". It's not only semantic matter. The matter is a historical honesty. All the lies on role of Poland during WW II, the deliberate or the accidental ones are pitiful and they should not be left without an answer".


European Parliament wanted to issue a proclamation due to 60th Anniversary of liberation of Auschwitz.
It was described as "a concentration camp on Poland's territory", but Polish politicians did not agree on that, and proposed "German concentration camp". Then German politicians did not agreed and proposed "Nazi-Hitlerite camp". Polish politicians did not agree being very stubborn and explaining the Nazis had a nationality and did not come from the Mars.
The compromise ultimate version was "German Nazi camp".
Last edited by Musashi on 06 Feb 2005 01:23, edited 4 times in total.

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Marcus
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Post by Marcus » 05 Feb 2005 22:16

Musashi wrote:Many morons in the world say such bullshits like below straighforwardly.


This is a research forum, please act accordingly and avoid such terms.

/Marcus

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Musashi
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Post by Musashi » 05 Feb 2005 22:21

Marcus Wendel wrote:
Musashi wrote:Many morons in the world say such bullshits like below straighforwardly.


This is a research forum, please act accordingly and avoid such terms.

/Marcus

No problem, Marcus. I have been trying to be cultural for more than a year, however these quotes are extremely offensive for me so I did a single exception. OK, I wil try to avoid it anyway :)

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Post by Ogorek » 06 Feb 2005 02:19

Musashi.....

The items in Polish were indeed very provacative (for lack of words that make me inappropriate in a reaserach forum)..

The full text of the American Jewish Committee press release :

http://www.ajc.org/InTheMedia/PressRele ... p?did=1499

Statement on Poland and the Auschwitz Commemoration

January 30, 2005 - New York - American Jewish Committee Executive Director David A. Harris issued the following statement today:
The American Jewish Committee wishes to express appreciation to Poland for hosting the commemorative event to mark the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz-Birkenau, and gratitude to Polish President Alexander Kwasniewski for his eloquent and stirring words at the ceremony.

We would also like to remind those who are either unaware of the facts or careless in their choice of words, as has been the case with some media outlets, that Auschwitz-Birkenau and the other death camps, including Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Sobibor and Treblinka, were conceived, built and operated by Nazi Germany and its allies.

The camps were located in German-occupied Poland, the European country with by far the largest Jewish population, but they were most emphatically not "Polish camps".

This is not a mere semantic matter. Historical integrity and accuracy hang in the balance.

Poland was the first nation attacked by the Third Reich, which ignited the Second World War on September 1, 1939. Polish forces fought valiantly, but were overwhelmed by the larger and better equipped Nazi army that invaded from the west, and then by the Soviet army, an ally of Hitler at the time, which attacked from the east. Nonetheless, Polish forces in exile continued the struggle against Hitler, together, of course, with other Allied troops, until the war's end. And it should also never be forgotten that, in addition to Polish Jews, who were targeted for total annihilation by the Nazi Final Solution, other Poles, including political prisoners such as Professor Wladyslaw Bartoszewski, who spoke so movingly at Auschwitz on January 27, and who was a key figure in the Polish underground, were also seized by the Nazis and incarcerated in concentration camps.

Any misrepresentation of Poland's role in the Second World War, whether intentional or accidental, would be most regrettable and therefore should not be left unchallenged.

New York, January 30, 2005



Contact: Kenneth Bandler (212) 891-6771 PR@ajc.org


Lisa Fingeret Roth (212) 891-1385 rothl@ajc.org

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Post by Musashi » 06 Feb 2005 22:30

Something on dinner:
Mengele, the gifted son of a rich industrialist, has been held responsible for the deaths of as many as 400,000 people in the infamous Polish death camp.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/Mengele/diaries_found.html
[My emphasis]


Open letter by the Polish Foreign Minister on the use of term "Polish concentration camps" to describe German Nazi concentration camps in occupied Poland - 8/19/2004

The letter was originally published by "The National Post", CanWest News Service, "The Ottawa Citizen" and "The Vancouver Sun" on August 18, 2004.

In a global environment we live, international relations focus primarily on such basic issues as international and national security, multilateral institutions and equitable trade relations, but also on the perception of human rights and a sense of justice associated with the sensitivity for historical truth. The later had always been a cornerstone of both Canadian and Polish foreign policy and we have never neglected to speak when it was necessary to defend them and uphold our values. Recently public opinion in Poland as well as the Canadian Polish community have been shocked to learn of the position taken by one of the prominent Canadian broadcast media outlets, the CTV, regarding the most painful part of our common history, namely the World War II and the Holocaust. We were told - and such was the clear message directed to the Canadian television viewers - that the Nazi German concentration camp at Treblinka in the Northeast of Poland set up in 1942 to facilitate the nightmarish plan of the Nazi "final solution" meaning simply the extermination of the European Jews, a camp which became a mass graveyard of hundreds of thousands of them was labelled a "Polish camp at Treblinka". There cannot be any other reaction to such a slander and ignorance than the demand of unconditional regret of the broadcaster in front of the same TV viewers who were exposed to this obvious insult harming not only the Poles of today but the victims of the Holocaust as well.


We consider Canadians well-informed society where integrity of the public dialogue and decent respect towards all communities contributing to the renowned Canadian formula of multiculturalism, have played fundamental role. Therefore it is even less understandable how such an example of the offensive and clearly biased misinformation could have found its way to the nationwide Canadian broadcast media organization. This incident becomes painfully irritating when we realize how easy - with minimum empathy and good will - is to learn today the historical truth, to check out simple facts. There are hundreds of documents, texts and testimonies describing German Nazi-orchestrated horror of Treblinka death factory that may be instantly found on the Internet. What makes the CTV report even more appalling, and indeed prompted both many Canadians of Polish descent, the Government of Poland and myself to look with scrutiny at this incident, is that while we have immediately demanded a formal apology through proper diplomatic channels, the President of the Company not only refused to do so but explicitly stated that a "Polish concentration camp" is a correct term and a proper phrase, relating to the geographical location. It seems that the CTV executives are unaware that the only proper, internationally accepted and historians-verified term is "the Nazi concentration camp in Germany-occupied Poland". Labeling the camp as "Polish" shifts the responsibility thus falsifying the fundamental truth about the Holocaust perpetrators.


In Poland, and several other European countries, it is legally qualified as the so-called "Auschwitz lie" and is a subject to criminal persecution. The remembrance of Jewish, Polish and many other nations' victims of Nazi genocide demand that we do not forget and call out if injustice is done. We have done so on many international issues and we found the Government of Canada a friend and a partner in this process. Over the last century Poland, has suffered human tragedy, death and destruction beyond any measure. For this reason we have to look with disdain upon those who, for reasons we refuse to consider, deny history, simplify the past and vilify the fallen.


Wlodzimierz Cimoszewicz

Minister of Foreign Affairs Republic of Poland


http://www.polishembassy.ca/news_details.asp?nid=200


Letter to CRTC
July 29, 2004



Mr. Charles Dalfen, Chair
The Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
Ottawa, ON
K1A 0N2




Dear Mr. Dalfen,

As you may already know, on April 30, 2004, CTV referred in its news broadcast to the notorious nazi death camp in Treblinka as a "Polish camp".

Built by Hitler's administration in 1942 as one of six extermination camps for the purpose of "The Final Solution", Treblinka took the lives of some 800,000 Jews and Gypsies from Poland, Austria, Belgium, Czechoslovakia, France, Greece, Jugoslavia, Germany and the Soviet Union. During the 13 months of the camp's operation, the killing rate exceeded 2,000 people a day, making Treblinka the most deadly of all nazi death camps.

The term "Polish camp" is both historically inaccurate and highly defamatory to the Poles. No Pole was involved in any aspect of the Treblinka camp operations. While the village indeed lies in Eastern Poland, during WWII the entire country was under nazi occupation, with enormous suffering and loss of life exceeding 20% of total population.

Numerous protests by Polish and Jewish organizations in Canada have been lodged with Robert Hurst, President of CTV News, including the enclosed letter from Poland's ambassador in Ottawa. Mr. Hurst refuses to run a retraction. What is more, he insists on continuing to use the defamatory and hurtful terms "Polish camps", "Polish concentration camps" and "Polish death camps", as indicated in his letter of May 6, 2004, enclosed for your reference.

It is our belief that CTV's stance on this issue contradicts public interest of Canadians, is highly hurtful to the Polish community here, and, equally important, borders on Holocaust denial by removing the odium of atrocities from its true perpetrators, the nazis.

Our organization, founded in 1988, is dedicated to preserving the unique culture of Polish Jews and fosters better understanding between Poles and Jews in Canada. We take exception to CTV's practice and policy as demonstrated in Mr. Hurst's May 6 letter and ask that CRTC takes steps to ensure CTV refrains from using this defamatory, hurtful and historically untrue language.

Sincerely yours,

THE POLISH-JEWISH HERITAGE FOUNDATION OF CANADA



Peter Jassem, President

cc: Mr. Ivan Fecan, CEO, Bell Globemedia Inc.
Mr. Michael J. Sabia, CEO, BCE Inc.




Poland demands Ottawa censure CTV over 'insult'
Broadcaster refuses to apologize after calling Treblinka a 'Polish' camp


Mike Blanchfield
CanWest News Service

Wednesday, August 18, 2004

OTTAWA - Poland has asked the Canadian government to take action against broadcaster CTV for refusing to apologize to viewers for referring to a Nazi German concentration camp in Poland as a "Polish camp."

In a letter to be sent to the Foreign Affairs Department today, the Polish government asks the federal government "to take appropriate actions to ensure that the dignity of the Republic of Poland, the ally of Canada in NATO, and the Polish nation is not affected by the untrue and detrimental information spread in Canada by the media."

The letter doesn't specify what the government should do but suggests that "for the sake of good relations that have existed between our two countries" it might want to consider unspecified action through the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission, which licenses broadcasters.

The letter is the latest salvo in an international dispute between the Polish government and the Canadian private broadcaster. It centres over wording in televised reports in November, 2003, and on April 30 about convicted Nazi war criminal John Demjanjuk, a guard at the Treblinka concentration camp, operated by Nazi Germans in occupied Poland during the Second World War.

The April 30 story referred to Demjanjuk being a guard at "the Polish camp of Treblinka."

Poland's ambassador to Canada, Pavel Dobrowolski, demanded an apology and a correction from CTV News president Robert Hurst in a May 6 letter.

"This choice of words is offensive to the Polish people and the government of Poland. The concentration camp in Treblinka was created by the Nazi Germans, who invaded and occupied Poland during the WWII," Mr. Dobrowolski wrote. "Therefore, to call the concentration camp in Treblinka 'the Polish camp of Treblinka' is an insult to millions of Poles who sacrificed their lives in the fight against Nazi Germany."

In a May 28 letter, Mr. Hurst declined to apologize, saying the wording was not meant to insult Poles and the context of the report made it clear the camp was run by Nazi Germans in occupied Poland.

"We sincerely regret that you were offended and that you feel that the usage of this term is insulting to the Polish nation and to Canada," Mr. Hurst wrote.

The reference, Mr. Hurst explained, was "to denote the location of the camps, not the country or the people responsible for the same."

Mr. Hurst wrote that although he understood the concerns "and believes in the use of precise language, we believe the term was again used in an appropriate fashion."

Mr. Hurst could not be reached for comment yesterday.

The Polish government is not satisfied with CTV's response and wants the government to intervene.

Polish Foreign Affairs Minister Wlodzimierz Cimoszewicz is calling on CTV to issue a public apology, "in front of the same TV viewers who were exposed to this obvious insult that harmed not only the Poles of today, but the victims of the Holocaust as well."

Mr. Cimoszewicz said the exact words used in the report are important.

"It seems that the CTV executives are unaware that the only proper, internationally accepted and historians-verified term is 'the Nazi concentration camp in Germany-occupied Poland.' "

Demjanjuk, an 84-year-old retired autoworker, lost his U.S. citizenship bid in an Ohio appeal court in April. Demjanjuk is in ill health, but has not exhausted his last appeal avenue to the U.S. Supreme Court.

An Israeli court convicted him of war crimes and crimes against humanity for being a notorious gas chamber guard known as Ivan the Terrible. Demjanjuk has maintained he is the victim of mistaken identity.

Three days after Demjanjuk's court appearance, The Associated Press news service, which covered the news development, issued a clarification over how it referred to the Treblinka camp.

"The Associated Press referred to Poland's Treblinka death camp. The story should have specified that Poland was occupied by Nazi Germany in the Second World War, and that death camps in Polish territory were operated by the Germans," said a clarification issued on May 3 on the AP wire.

About 5.5 million Poles, including more than three million Polish Jews, died during the three-year Nazi occupation of Poland during the Second World War.

Six million Jews were systematically killed during the Holocaust.

(Ottawa Citizen)

http://www.pjhftoronto.ca/ctv1.html

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Post by tom_deba » 07 Feb 2005 12:54

Thanks to Musashi, who posted that topic, we can try to "fight" against that awful stereotype of "Polish camps" by showing it in this forum. We, Poles, have to speak a lot about in, otherwise that humilitating error will be used in future.

Saying "Polish concentration camps" person shows his attidute towards history that characterize the lack of elementary knowledge. The fact that the bulk of Nazi large KL camps were situated in Poland (Stutthof, Auschwitz-Birkenau, Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor and others) DOES NOT MEAN that they POLISH!!! Total ignorance of history. One French gazette claimed recently that there had been even POLISH gas chambers and crematories!!! Awful!

One of the victim of KL Auschwitz, an old Jewish citizen told during the cemeronies of camp liberation that some journalists who write such articles about Polish camps should firstly experience the hell of Nazi camp and then try to write something about it.

In September 1939, according to the Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement, Soviets took over huge part of Poland. Soon, several prisons and camps had been run by Soviets, there. Places like Zamarstynow prison, "Brygidki" prison and many other symbolize cruel policy of USSR. It is interesting that nobody called that places "POLISH" even though they had been, like German KLs situated on Polish soil.

Question should be asked. The "Polish camps..." is a typical error. WHY DON'T PEOPLE KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT HOLOCAUST TRAGEDY???

Maybe there are solutions:

1) to lay impact on Holocaust tragedy in educational program (when I was in high school there was no lesson about Holocaust, it wasn't even mentioned)
2) to set up an international educational program teaching the tragedy of murdered during WW2
3) to create a centre of reconcilation somewhere in Poland where young people all around the world would meet and learn about that tragedy
4) to run the institution that would work on correcting of history/press common errors and publicize them in internet


/tom/

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Post by Musashi » 07 Feb 2005 16:19

I have a Polish article where somebody found a publication about calling Stutthof "a Polish concentration camp" in spite of that it had been located in Eastern Prussia during WWII. I read in the same article a story about an American pilot who had been shot down over Germany and he claimed he had been imprisoned in "a Polish concentration camp" in... Berlin.
I am not sure if I should laugh or cry reading such a crap.

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Post by Musashi » 11 Feb 2005 15:01

Something even more "original".
There are not Jews in Poland now, because all of them have been killed by Poles. Concentration camps, and there were Polish concentration camps, were operated by Poles. Hitler did not need to kill Jews in Poland, because Poles did it behalf him. These are Poles and only Poles who are guilty for extermination of Jews.

[Howard Stern, an American journalist]

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Post by Raven » 11 Feb 2005 15:25

Musashi wrote:Something even more "original".
There are not Jews in Poland now, because all of them have been killed by Poles. Concentration camps, and there were Polish concentration camps, were operated by Poles. Hitler did not need to kill Jews in Poland, because Poles did it behalf him. These are Poles and only Poles who are guilty for extermination of Jews.

[Howard Stern, an American journalist]


8O

I don't know what to do . Laugh or cry

Simply unbelievable

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Post by AAA » 11 Feb 2005 15:34

Musashi,
I understand that Howard Stern is not someone to take seriously. He a radio broadcaster - a "shock-jock" (or whatever) - Stern deliberately carries on with complete BS to "shock" the listeners (US readers may elaborate? ) - but not a journalist.

But hey, I fully understand your getting angry about this rubbish! You are not the only one irritated with the "Polish concentration camp" syndrome - it seems to be spreading. According to the Russian News and Information Agency NOVOSTI KL Salaspils is now a "Latvian death camp" :
FORMER LATVIAN DEATH CAMP PRISONER THANKS PRESIDENT PUTIN

MOSCOW, February 9 (RIA Novosti) - A former prisoner of the Salaspils death camp ...
8O, [edit] - just noticed this other NOVOSTI "gem" :
...the Salaspils concentration camp, which many see as the "Latvian Auschwitz" and in which Nazis murdered about 100,000 during WWII...

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Post by Beppo Schmidt » 01 Mar 2005 20:04

People going to gas chambers were selected by the German army officers


No, they weren't. The Wehrmacht did not operate gas chambers or select who went to them.

There are not Jews in Poland now


There aren't?

Concentration camps, and there were Polish concentration camps, were operated by Poles


What history book did he read, Poles were considered untermenschen. 8O

These are Poles and only Poles who are guilty for extermination of Jews.


Only Poles are responsible for the extermination of Jews? So Hitler, Goering, Himmler, Heydrich, Eichmann, Kaltenbrunner, Höss, Mengele, Frank, and too many other people to mention, were all really Polish?

Even by Howard Stern's standards, what utter unadulterated bullshit. :x

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Post by David Thompson » 01 Mar 2005 20:19

From the section rules:
1. Low forms of speech

We have intelligent readers here, so low forms of speech are unwelcome. We're trying to move past the lavatory wall stage in discussing historical problems. Noncomplying posts are subject to deletion after warning, and in extreme cases, to deletion with no warning at all.

viewtopic.php?t=53962

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Post by Beppo Schmidt » 01 Mar 2005 20:29

I have a Polish article where somebody found a publication about calling Stutthof "a Polish concentration camp" in spite of that it had been located in Eastern Prussia during WWII. I read in the same article a story about an American pilot who had been shot down over Germany and he claimed he had been imprisoned in "a Polish concentration camp" in... Berlin.
I am not sure if I should laugh or cry reading such a crap.


Where on earth does this misconception come from?

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Post by David Thompson » 01 Mar 2005 21:00

Beppo -- You asked:
Where on earth does this misconception come from?

I think its just an imprecise use of English. Because concentration camps happened to be located in Poland, they're called "Polish camps" even though another nation operated or administered them. Unfortunately, the English expression can connote either location or a nationality, or both.

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Post by Beppo Schmidt » 01 Mar 2005 21:22

Musashi commented on:

an American pilot who had been shot down over Germany and he claimed he had been imprisoned in "a Polish concentration camp" in... Berlin.


That's what i was referring to, how could he claim to have been in a Polish concentration camp in Berlin??

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