Japanese subs carrying Aircrafts ?

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Mikael
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Japanese subs carrying Aircrafts ?

Post by Mikael » 10 Feb 2005 19:35

Japanese Aircraft carrying subs ? Is it true ?? How large was they ? How many planes could they carry ?
What is the name of theese subs, and what planes flew on them.
Last edited by Mikael on 10 Feb 2005 19:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Richard Hedlund
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Post by Richard Hedlund » 10 Feb 2005 19:37

I think you have made a mistake in the title.

Japanese Submarines that carried aircrafts.

This was, as far as I know, true. I shall look up the info in one of my books soon.

Have a pleasent evening,
Richard

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Mikael
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Post by Mikael » 10 Feb 2005 19:38

True :D Would be fun if it was as i said though :D :) Was a bit in hurry when i wrote title, did not think properly :) (JAG starts soon on tv3 :))

Darkfire
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Post by Darkfire » 10 Feb 2005 20:25

Sub-carrying aricraft? Now that would be very cool indeed. 8)

The Japanese submarine service was the most varied of all WWII combatants, and included 47 boats capable of lauching aircraft. These subs typically shipped 1 or 2 floatplanes. The I-400 class however could embark 3 planes in its hangar and was the largest non-nuclear submarine ever to put to sea. Originally intending to bomb the US East Coast, IJN planners scaled back their ambitions to bombing the Panama Canal, a scheme which also never came off.

The intrepid I-25 (Type B1) did launch aerial attacks against Oregon, but with negligible effect. Recon missions from sub-launched floatplanes were conducted over Sydney, Melbourne, Hobart, and Wellington, as well as immunerable less prestigious targets. Later in the war, many of these boats were converted to transport vessels, especially for fuel.

At war's end, several were readying themselves for an aircraft attack on the huge American anchorage at Ulithi before the surrender cut short their plan.

Lots more information here:

http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/carriers/odd/index2.htm
http://www.afa.org/magazine/march2004/0304sub.asp
http://www.combinedfleet.com/sensuikan.htm

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PapageiStaffel
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Post by PapageiStaffel » 10 Feb 2005 21:12

Hi,

Indeed, submarines which can fly would be cool. Beware of the awake of the swiss U-bootwaffe :D
To be serious. Was it possible that the japaneses thought to launch something like a small Kaiten from a plane ? With them, nothing was impossible. They also bombed the States with balloons launched from Japan and pushed by the jet stream.
Flying submarine : you dreamt it, Mitsubishi did it :)

So long.

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Re: Japanese subs carrying Aircrafts ?

Post by Tiornu » 10 Feb 2005 22:28

Several navies experimented with aircraft-carrying submarines between the wars. The US and UK abandoned the idea. The French persisted long enough to complete Surcouf with aviation facilities. The Japanese went whole-hog for the idea.
The demands of aviation facilities had serious repercussions on the handiness of the submarine, not to mention the enlarged target area. Japanese aircraft-carrying subs appear to me to have had a lesser life-expectancy than their more conventional fleetmates, if that is possible.
I-400 was so large that she was disguised with a false superstructure during coastal movements.

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patrynius
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Post by patrynius » 15 Feb 2005 20:30

I400 I401 and I402 class "sen toku"

p.s. sorry - there's of course another topic about subs carriers :) and all informations are there. Sorry - I'm new one here :)
Here some informations
[/url] http://warships.web4u.cz/lode.php?langu ... a=Sen-Toku
[url]

It was completly new idea of using subs. Now boat can also attack strategic target on the land, no t only on sea. Of course another (earlier construction) japanes subs use aircrafts but usually it was only for recon mission or small attacks (like mention in Oregon). Sen Toku have 3 planes which every can use 800 kg bombs. It wasn't preapre for conventional torpedo attack (the biggest u-boat, and only 8 TT 533mm. :) ).
I think it was beginning of something new, like today's rockets attack.
Of course there were still lots disadvantages, it was big, easy to discover.
Why Japanes order I400 back while sailing to panama Canal, don"t know (new order was IMHO irrational)

Best regards[/url]

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Michael Emrys
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Post by Michael Emrys » 16 Feb 2005 17:49

Darkfire wrote:Originally intending to bomb the US East Coast...


"East Coast"...? :? Were they planning to go around Cape Horn? Or was it the West Coast they planned to bomb?

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patrynius
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Post by patrynius » 16 Feb 2005 18:04

Hi
Originally I400 planned to attack Panam Canal on the eastern side (Atlantic side), they send subs through Indian Ocean, South Africa and Across Atltantic - so the plans says :) .. and I thing that was darkfire taking about- atack on New York..never heard.
(but technically possible I thing)
regards

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Richard Hedlund
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Post by Richard Hedlund » 16 Feb 2005 18:45

Sounds sort of stupid to me to go around the whole world almost just to bomb the small Panama canal when it is just to cross the Pacific and bomb it. That short flytrip can't bother anyone. Or how far was the range of the bombers that the subs carried? Maybe they could not cover the entire panama canal.

/Richard

Darkfire
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Post by Darkfire » 16 Feb 2005 22:13

Grease Spot-

Yes indeed the Japanese wanted to hit the East Coast. From the Journal of the Air Force Association:

Japan continued to pursue the submarine-aircraft combination, building even larger subs intended to carry aircraft to bomb Washington, D.C., and New York City.

In 1942, Japan began construction of the I-400 class—the Sen-Toku (STo) or special submarines. These were the largest non-nuclear submarines ever constructed. They had a surface displacement of 5,223 tons and were 400.25 feet long—a length not exceeded by submarines until the nuclear-propelled submarines of the mid-1960s. The I-400s were propelled on the surface by diesel engines and submerged by electric motors, which obtained their energy from batteries.

While the first I-400s were under construction, the changing course of the Pacific war caused Japan to change the I-400 mission from strikes on Washington and New York City to the Panama Canal. Japan wanted to slow the flow of US warships into the Pacific.


I must agree with you guys that the plan was hopelessly overambitious. The Germans of course were also planning ways to strike the US mainland.

As for the Panama Canal, I've read that the Japanese reckoned the intended combination of ordnance carried on the sub-loaded attack aircraft would be more effective against the locks on the Caribbean entrance to the canal (which is actually to the west of the Pacific entrance) and feared that overflying the isthmus from the Pacific would spoil the surprise.

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patrynius
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Post by patrynius » 17 Feb 2005 00:25

Hi
Exactly like Darkfire said (thanks for infos bout attack on East Coast), nobody excepted japs on Carribean sea so that could be a surprise. It's important to said that Sen Toku class have very modern aircrafts Seirans.
We have to remember how important Panam Canal was (and is) for USNavy (and why in Washington Treaty is 45000ton limits for battleship :) ), but in that point of war it was to late (Maintenance go through States).
And it was fantasy like V2 attacks from u-boots (but "plus" for Japanese - technically realistic)

p.s. Yes ofcourse - I was talking about Carribean entrance

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MAX_theHitMan
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Post by MAX_theHitMan » 17 Feb 2005 02:19

Submarine carrying planes!? :o

Huh?

What will they dream up next?

An airplane that carries a torpedo?! ... I don´t believe it !!

It´s probably all propaganda scheme.
I bet you they have a bar inside that submarine hangar :D

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Sewer King
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Operation PX (Cherry Blossoms at Night), by I-400 planes

Post by Sewer King » 22 Feb 2005 04:19

A Japanese veteran in about 1997 described a plan to use the submarine-launched floatplanes to strike San Diego in September 45. This was to use bubonic plague, in the only reported preparation for germ attack against the continental US.

Said to be code-named Operation PX or Cherry Blossoms at Night, these plans may have reached only some limited stage. There were earlier floatplane carrier subs in service and I have not heard if I-400 was even the one such plans were made around -- although it seems likely.

Bubonic plague attacks were launched in central China in 1940-42, using fleas sprayed from bombers. General Shiro Ishii led the Japanese BW effort with his infamous Unit 731 in Manchuria, but he had set up other BW Units along the coasts of occupiued China, Indochina, Singapore, and elsewhere. Ishii himself had designed a ceramic bomb (the Uji series) for dropping plague-infected fleas without killing them, but again there are no details for what weapons were proposed for any such attack on the US.

However unlikely, the possibility of such a long-range BW attack by I-boat raises still other questions all by itself. The Imperial Army and Navy were very uncooperative with each other, and General Ishii himself openly disdained naval officers. There is very little record that the Navy had or considered any BW capability of its own.

The last Seiran in the world just recently went on display at the US National Air and Space Museum's Udvar-Hazy Annex, near Washington DC's Dulles International Airport. They did a fine job of restoring it.

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Re: Japanese subs carrying Aircrafts ?

Post by Tony Williams » 22 Feb 2005 10:13

Mikael wrote:Japanese Aircraft carrying subs ?


Would be OK if you used a hyphen, as in 'Japanese aircraft-carrying subs'. :wink:

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