Areas of Czechoslovakia annexed by Poland in 1938

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Marcus
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Areas of Czechoslovakia annexed by Poland in 1938

Post by Marcus » 01 Mar 2005 20:25

Has anyone got any good maps of the Teschen region of Czechoslovakia that was annexed by Poland in Oct 1938 following the Munich agreement?
Thanks.

/Marcus

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Liluh
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Post by Liluh » 02 Mar 2005 20:28

Take a look at this site (although in polish), it`s unbelivable!

http://mapywig.obluze.net.pl/

Free effort of some cartograph-geeks, who want to put ALL maps made by Geological War Institute (WIG) from 1919 to 1938.

Pick the area of interest here:

http://mapywig.obluze.net.pl/main.php?l ... =skorowidz
(1:100 000)

Hint: You`re interested in the South-East part of the country ;) Also, let the doted black&white map to load until you`ll be able to click on the bottom squares (yeah, may take long, but it`s worth it!). The green marks scanned map in good or very good quality, the red symbolises worst quality, yellow is medium level, the 'dirty green' are german maps.

The d/l is quite poor on this page for me... *sigh*

I hope it helps.

Btw. Did you know that President Benes wrote to Moscicki a note, where he suggested cedding "Zaolzie" area to Poland a week before Munich conference was over?

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Marcus
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Post by Marcus » 04 Mar 2005 19:43


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henryk
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Post by henryk » 04 Mar 2005 21:12

This map shows Zaolzie, the part of Poland occupied by Czecho-Slovakia after WWI and given by Czecho-Slovakia to Poland in 1938. Taken from: The Return of the Emigrants to Upper Silesia: Reality and Prospects, Krystian Heffner, a chapter in: The Challenge of East- West Migration for Poland, Ed. Krystyna Iglicka, Keith Sword, 1999
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yerbamatt
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Another Map...

Post by yerbamatt » 06 May 2005 06:56

Please note that the green line is the new, November 2nd, 1938 border between the two countries, yellow one - an ethnic boundary and the red - historical borders of so-called Teschener Silesia (pol. Slask Cieszynski, czech. Tesinske Slezsko), inherited from Austria-Hungary after WWI.
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Piotr Kapuscinski
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Re: Teschen region annexed by Poland 1938

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 11 Apr 2009 22:31

Polish forces enter Zaolzie - 1938:


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Jiri
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Re:

Post by Jiri » 02 Sep 2009 11:58

henryk wrote:This map shows Zaolzie, the part of Poland occupied by Czecho-Slovakia after WWI and given by Czecho-Slovakia to Poland in 1938.
You did surely mean territory renounced by Poland in 1335 for ever, then illegally occupied by Poland in 1918, liberated by Czechoslovak army in 1919, and then AGAIN occupied by Poland in October 1938 (at that time Poland was an ally of Nazi Germany)? 8O
Last edited by Jiri on 02 Sep 2009 12:50, edited 4 times in total.

ljadw
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Re: Teschen region annexed by Poland 1938

Post by ljadw » 02 Sep 2009 12:32

I have the following information from 'Lihistoire de l'armée allemande ' Part V P161 by Benoist-Mechin : Juny 28 1920 during the battle of Warsaw,a Salomon treaty was concluded between Polabd and Pragua,under the auspices of the Allies:half of the territoties remained Polish(the agricultural arrondissements of Bielsk and Cziezyn ) ,the other half became Chechisch (the industriel arrondissements of Frydek and Frysztat with 75000 Poles ). Paderewski raised a protest to the allies (F.Kahanek,Benes contra Beck:Reportaze a dokumenty,P 12 ;Vaclav Fiala :La Pologne d'aujourd'hui P 118 ) . Can some one deny or confirm these informations ? And after WWII ,what happpened to those territories ? The division remaining,or changing ? Thank you .

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Re: Teschen region annexed by Poland 1938

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 02 Sep 2009 13:17

You did surely mean territory renounced by Poland in 1335 for ever.
These territories were renounced by Casimir III the Great from Piast dynasty (not by Poland) in 1338, not in 1335.

Not for ever because yet in years 1345 - 1348 Casimir attacked these territories. On 22.10.1348, when this war came to an end and peace was signed in Namyslow, Casimir didn't repeat his previous declaration (renouncement) again.

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Jiri
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Re: Teschen region annexed by Poland 1938

Post by Jiri » 02 Sep 2009 13:47

Domen121 wrote:
These territories were renounced by Casimir III the Great from Piast dynasty (not by Poland)
Have you ever heard about medieval concepts of sovereignty? If Casimir the Great renounced his claims, he did it in behalf on country which he ruled.
in 1338, not in 1335.
On August 24 1335 treaty of Nitra was signed. If you meant ratification, it happened on March 9 1339.
Not for ever because yet in years 1345 - 1348 Casimir attacked these territories. On 22.10.1348, when this war came to an end and peace was signed in Namyslow,
Am I to blame for the exceptionally short time for which eternity lasts in Poland? :D Casimir renounced claims of Poland forever in 1335.
Casimir didn't repeat his previous declaration (renouncement) again.
No need to repeat his previous renouncement. Rump territory of Těšínsko remained part of Czech lands until inglorious Polish occupation of 1918 and even more infamous stabbbing-in-the back in October 1938.
And this Polish plunder of 1938 was justly returned to Czechoslovakia in 1945, along with other territories occupied by her pre-war fascist neighbours - although they were some minor frontier corrections in 1950s due to pro-Polish pressure by Moscow.
Last edited by Jiri on 03 Sep 2009 18:45, edited 1 time in total.

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henryk
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Re: Re:

Post by henryk » 02 Sep 2009 19:22

Jiri wrote:You did surely mean territory renounced by Poland in 1335 for ever, then illegally occupied by Poland in 1918, liberated by Czechoslovak army in 1919, and then AGAIN occupied by Poland in October 1938 (at that time Poland was an ally of Nazi Germany)? 8O
In the 20th and 21th centuries the basis for ownership claims on a territory should be ethnicity, not historical ownership.

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Re: Teschen region annexed by Poland 1938

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 02 Sep 2009 22:17

he did it in behalf on country which he ruled.
Rather in behalf of dynasty which ruled over this country.
On August 24 1335 treaty of Nitra was signed.
In 1335 in Trencin Casimir didn't renounce anything but only declared that he won't demand returning these lands back to Poland (Bohemia ingloriously subordinated these Polish lands in 1329 by forcing local dukes to pay homage to it).

He renounced his rights to the Silesian duchys subordinated by Bohemia (but not to the duchys which remained independent of Bohemia - Wroclaw, Jawor, Swidnica, Ziebice, Nysa) in 1338, during the 2nd Convention in Visegrad.
it happened on March 9 1339.
Only according to Jan Dlugosz - while according to most of historians yet in 1338.
Am I to blame for the exceptionally short time for which eternity lasts in Poland?
Poland is not any exception in this case. All "eternal peaces" in history were always lasting for a very short time.

When the US government gave the new "great reservation" to the Dakota Indians, they also wrote in the treaty that "these lands will belong to the Siouxs as long as grass is green and rivers flow". It seems that grass is blue now.

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Marcus
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Re: Teschen region annexed by Poland 1938

Post by Marcus » 03 Sep 2009 07:42

A pointless post by minimus and the now redundant replies were removed.

/Marcus

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KACKO
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Re: Re:

Post by KACKO » 03 Sep 2009 17:18

henryk wrote: In the 20th and 21th centuries the basis for ownership claims on a territory should be ethnicity, not historical ownership.
Well so why Poland occupied in 1938 Slovak territories in regions Kysuce, Orava and Spis even in face of resistance from local population, when Polish border commission faced demonstration and was even attacked by locals? ;)

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Jiri
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Re: Re:

Post by Jiri » 03 Sep 2009 18:40

henryk wrote:
Jiri wrote:You did surely mean territory renounced by Poland in 1335 for ever, then illegally occupied by Poland in 1918, liberated by Czechoslovak army in 1919, and then AGAIN occupied by Poland in October 1938 (at that time Poland was an ally of Nazi Germany)? 8O
In the 20th and 21th centuries the basis for ownership claims on a territory should be ethnicity, not historical ownership.
Very strange thing indeed - Poland in 1918 claimed vast areas of Prussia, Ukraine and Belarus - with negligible Polish minorities - almost solely on historical basis, but reclaimed Těšínsko on ethnicity basis? This certainly resembles one character from Sienkiewicz's In Desert and Wilderness who said: "Wrong is when somebody steals my cow. Right is when I steal someone's cow." :D

And regardless of what the basis for ownership claim should be - this doesn't justify Polish agression in 1918, nor make Czechoslovak recovery of part of the territory in 1919 "a Czech occupation" as you did in your nationalist-biased statement.
Last edited by Jiri on 03 Sep 2009 19:20, edited 4 times in total.

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