Turkish troops in Galizia and Dobrogea

[Nadir Shah]

In his book "The Eastern Front 1914-1917" Norman Stone mentioned Turkish troops fighting in eastern Galizia (a corp) and in Dobrogea in 1916. Could any help me with some info on this subject.
Best regards
Nadir

[rhlv]

According to Erickson's Ordered to Die the following Turkish units were involved in Europe in 1916:
In Galicia
XV Corps: 19, 20 infantry divisions
In Romania
VI Corps: 15, 25, 26 infantry divisions
In Macedonia
XX Corps: 49, 50 infantry divisions
Hope this is of some help.
Rich

[Nadir Shah]

Thank you for your message. Do you know anything about their actions in these areas in compare to German, Austro-hungarian or Bulgarian forces? How long did they fight on this front?
Bye

[seljuk]

According to Turkish history book, nearly 7000 soldiers died against fighting Russian. Also book claim that; Turks were very brave and helpful therefore German military made announcement that German and Turks are “blood brother”. I don’t know its true… Any comment?

[Mehmet Fatih]

As far as i remember from Erickson's "Ordered to Die", a German Army officer stated:"In Galicia, I saw how fine the Turkish soldier could fight when he was well supplied and well armed."
"The divisions that were sent to Galicia, were some kind of elite." says in Osprey's book "Ottoman Army 1914-1918". Because they were equipped by Germany and Austrio-Hungary.

Regards

[3.Jäger Rgt.]

Speaking of elite Turkish troops, there is a famous photo of Turkish "storm troops" being inspected by a German officer. They are wearing the distinctive steel helmets. They also have a sleeve insignia on their upper left arm. It is in the shape of a German command flag. May years ago, I found a very similar insignia on a field gray wool backing. I bought it, not knowing what it was. The fact that it was on field gray cloth and I had never seen such a thing before, convinced me that it was something special. Having later seen this photo, I am convinced there is a relationship. My patch has a similar flag and a unit number "18". It is a quality, German made piece and my guess is that it was made for one of the German officer's or other advisors. Two questions, has anyone seen such a patch before? Secondly, was there a Turk unit with the number 18 that might have served with the Germans? I could post a picture of the patch if anyone is interested to see it.

Thanks,
Chip

[Peter H]

Chip,

The photo can be found here:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=48481

Regards,
Peter

[Mehmet Fatih]

I have gathered some info about the Turkish troops in Galicia.I didn't give any info about the battles.Just tried to show how the Ottoman Army went there and how they returned and some details about equipment and command.I hope it will be useful.(All info here gathered from Ýsmet Görgülü's book On Yýllýk Harbin Kadrosu,Türk Tarih Kurumu Yayýnlarý 1993 and Birinci Dünya Harbinde Türk Harbi-Avrupa Cepheleri(Özet),Genelkurmay Askeri Tarih ve Stratejik Etüt Baþkanlýðý Yayýnlarý 1996.)

Enver Pasha was the supreme commander of the Ottoman Army.He believed that the result of the war will be decided in European soil.So he decided to send 3 well equipped korps to Eastern Europe to help the Germans and Austrians.It was a great act of stupidity that even Liman von Sanders tried to prevent Enver Pasha doing that.
15th Army Corps(19th and 20th Divisions) were sent to Galicia, 6th Army Corps to Romania and 20th Army Corps along with 177th Reinforced Infantry Regiment to Macedonia.The first troops of 15th Army Corps arrived in Galicia in the end of July 1916.First troops of 6th Army Corps arrived in Romania in the second week of September.The first troops of 20th Army Corps arrived to Macedonia in the end of September.177th Infantry Regiment arrived in December 1916.
After fierce battles, 19th Division started leaving Galicia on 11 June 1917.The last party left on 7 July 1917.They were replaced with 15th German Reserve Division.20th Division stayed and participated in general counter offensive in July.They were replaced with 24th German Reserve Division on the night of August 8.They all returned to Istanbul on 11 September 1917.

15th Army Corps

The troops of 15th Army Corps started to leave for Galicia on 23 July 1916 and the last troops left on 11 August 1916.There were 4 Army Corps under the command of German Army(South) in Galicia Front.15th Army Corps would be the fifth one.15th Army Corps consisted of 2 Divisions.(19th and 20th Divisions)
The Organisation of 15th Army Corps was like that:

Corps Headquarters:

15th Army Corps Commander Colonel Yakup Sevki (Later to be Brigadier General on 8 October 1916)
Brigadier General Cevat (Assigned on 10 November 1916)

15th Army Corps Chief of Staff Liutenant-Colonel Hayri
Liutenant-Colonel Sefik
Major S. Avni

19th Division:

19th Division Commander Liutenant-Colonel Sefik
Liutenant-Colonel Sedat(Assigned on 16 October 1916)

19th Division Chief of Staff Major Lutfu

3 Infantry Regiments(All regiments were consisted of 4 batallions.)

57th Infantry Regiment(Commander; Major Hayri)
72th Infantry Regiment(Commander; Major Rifat)
77th Infantry Regiment(Commander; Yarbay Saip)

2 Machine Gun Detachments

Cavalry Company(5th Company of the 4th Cavalry Regiment)

Artillery Regiment(Commander; Major Ziya. 2nd Rapid Firing Batallion of 25th Artillery Regiment and 1st Batallion of 9th Artillery Regiment)

Engineer Company(4th Company of 3rd Engineer Batallion)

19th Medical Company

Signal Group


20th Division:

20th Division Commander Liutenant-Colonel Yasin Hilmi

20th Division Chief of Staff Captain Ismail Hakki

3 Infantry Regiments(All regiments were consisted of 4 batallions.)

61st Infantry Regiment(Commander; Liutenant-Colonel Bahattin)
62nd Infantry Regiment(Commander; Major Nazmi)
63rd Infantry Regiment (Commander; Major Ahmed Muhtar)

2 Machine Gun Detachments

Cavalry Company(6th Company of 12nd Cavalry Regiment)

20th Artillery Regiment(Commander; Major Suleyman Avni)

Engineers Company(4th Company of 4th Engineers Batallion)

German Aid

On August 1916, German Army gave 18 artillery pieces with different sizes and 2 flame throwers.In September 1916, 30 Russian machine guns were given to 15th Army Corps.In December 1916, 15th Army Corps was equipped with 72 German(1915 model) light machine guns.

Casulties(23 July 1916-15 July 1917)

15th Army Corps went to Galicia with nearly 33.000 men.In July 1917, there were 15000 wounded and dead.Among these men, there were 100 dead officers and 120 wounded officers.

Awards

15th Army Corps was closely watched during the campaign.After every success, they were congratulated by Kaiser and the Sultan.
On 22 January 1917, many officers were awarded with Iron Cross.On the same day, all regimental flags of 15th Army Corps were awarded by the Sultan.
15th Army Corps CO Brigadier General Cevat was awarded by Austria-Hungary Emperor Karl.
In July 1917, Sultan awarded 61st and 63rd Infantry Regiments were awarded by Sultan with Ottoman War Medal.On the very same day, some officers were awarded with Iron Cross.[/i]

[3.Jäger Rgt.]

Peter,

Yes, that is the photo. I don't know how we have come to the decision that the insignia is red and white. To me, the shades of the two darker sections look different, which would be consistent with my patch, which has red and black sections. I noticed that Cristiano got no replies to his earlier questions about the insignia. I had thought perhaps our forum members from Istanbul might come up with something, but this might be a very difficult nut to crack. I have certainly never seen any identifications in all the years that I have been collecting.

Chip

[trickcyclist]

waffen_für _alle:

In your books, is there any mention of Turks actually using flame throwers in combat?

Also, you said that in August 1916 the Germans gave the Turks 2 flame throwers, but the Erickson book says that the Germans gave the Turks 30 flame throwers.

Thanks.

TC

[Peter H]

Chip,

Can you please post a picture of your patch.

Regards,
Peter

[3.Jäger Rgt.]

Peter,

I am not at my computer with the scanner tonight, but I will post it tomorrow.

Chip

[bob lembke]

waffen_für _alle:

In your books, is there any mention of Turks actually using flame throwers in combat?

Also, you said that in August 1916 the Germans gave the Turks 2 flame throwers, but the Erickson book says that the Germans gave the Turks 30 flame throwers.

Thanks.

TC

waffen_für_alle;

To echo TC, these weapons were not too mechanically complicated, but their maintainence and effective use was quite a complex process. Two flame throwers, in the German Army, would be operated by a Trupp of only nine men. It would seem that more than two would have been assigned to an army corps. Galicia would have been a good place to assign and employ all or most of them, closer proximity to the Germans and Austrians (who also had flame throwers) would assist their being effectively used and continued technical support. Dragging a few off to the Caucasus or Iraq would ensure that they could not be used effectively, certainly not for long. They required specialized flame oil mixtures, and a supply of compressed nitrogen, which I doubt could be obtained anywhere in Turkey, certainly not off on the eastern or southern fronts.

Any information on these devices gratefully received.

Bob Lembke

PS: Was at the Military Library at the Askeri Müze last September trying to research this, but no success.

[Mehmet Fatih]

waffen_für _alle:

In your books, is there any mention of Turks actually using flame throwers in combat?

Also, you said that in August 1916 the Germans gave the Turks 2 flame throwers, but the Erickson book says that the Germans gave the Turks 30 flame throwers.

Thanks.

TC

waffen_für_alle;

To echo TC, these weapons were not too mechanically complicated, but their maintainence and effective use was quite a complex process. Two flame throwers, in the German Army, would be operated by a Trupp of only nine men. It would seem that more than two would have been assigned to an army corps. Galicia would have been a good place to assign and employ all or most of them, closer proximity to the Germans and Austrians (who also had flame throwers) would assist their being effectively used and continued technical support. Dragging a few off to the Caucasus or Iraq would ensure that they could not be used effectively, certainly not for long. They required specialized flame oil mixtures, and a supply of compressed nitrogen, which I doubt could be obtained anywhere in Turkey, certainly not off on the eastern or southern fronts.

Any information on these devices gratefully received.

Bob Lembke

PS: Was at the Military Library at the Askeri Müze last September trying to research this, but no success.

Trickcyclist,

I have read Ericksonn's book last year,that is why i dont remind the flamethrower part.And as i dont have the book with me i can make no comment about what he said.Are you sure that he says all this 30 flame throwers were given to Turks in Galicia?
I gathered the info about German aid from the second book.It is a book from Turkish Chief of Staff's Military History and Strategic Studies Unit.(Genelkurmay Askeri Tarih ve Stratejik Etüd Baskanligi)Ericksonn uses the same references in his book.
The book doesent mention of using the flame throwers in combat.But as a great weapon for trench warfare, they had might been used.But i doubt if the Turkish soldiers or German soldiers operated this German made Ottoman flame throwers.Because in the same book it says that Austrians gave Turks some machine guns(4 guns for every batallion).And they sent Austrian machine gunners with the guns.After a few months Austrian machine gunners returned to their army and left the guns for Turkish machine gunners.Probably Germans did the same with flame throwers, as it needs technical education and training.

And Bob,

I have almost all books of Turkish Chief of Staff about WW1 but never saw any detailed info about flame throwers.Although Askeri Muze(Military Museum in Harbiye/Istanbul) has a huge library about war, most of the useful works are written in Ottoman Arabic and not translated into modern Turkish.Even Harp Mecmuasi("War Magazine" The military magazine of Ottoman army during WW1) is translated into Turkish recently.As you see, there is little chance to get any kind of info.Maybe German records would more useful about those flame throwers.

Regards

[bob lembke]

Merhaba, waffer_für_alle;

From memory, Erikson, in the back of his book, gave a list of the total aid that the Germans sent the Turks during the war, a simple list without any mention of where they were sent, and he listed that the Turkish Army was given 30 flame throwers, about the number needed for a flame company, plus a few spares. Less would not make much sense.

A friend has a very interesting photo that shows a flame thrower team wearing the Turkish-style steel helmets that the Germans made for the Turkish Army. They were training in a trench at a training facility in Galicia. They must be Turks, and the picture does show that the Turks did train with these devices. The German flame troops periodically sent flame troops to the Austro-Hungarian front to train allied troops and perhaps conduct a few attacks, as did storm trooper units based in France.

I am not optimistic about finding much about these Turkish flame throwers. I have even thought of learning a very small relevant Turkish vocabilary, and then skim through the Turkish sources to try to find references to these weapons, and then have someone translate it for me. I have a friend who is a native Turkish speaker, but I cannot expect him to read several books for me. I am also interested in some things about the Gallipoli Campaign (in pareticular the German volunteer Pioniere (pioneer) company that fought there; my father was in it), so I could try to "kill two birds with one stone". I do understand how difficult Turkish is. My wife tried to start learning it recently, and quickly switched to Arabic. I may know ten words, plus some Arabic that is also used in Turkish.

Bob Lembke