Nazi Super-Babies

Discussions on every day life in the Weimar Republic, pre-anschluss Austria, Third Reich and the occupied territories. Hosted by Vikki.
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eindhoven
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Post by eindhoven » 14 Mar 2005 16:00

You cannot rely on something as spoon fed as as media program. History Channel in particular runs extremely flawed programming. Flawed in the sense that footage is incorrectly used nearly all the time, one sided presentations are put forth, and the content is deliberately designed to be sensational. It is yellow journalism in documentary form.

Lebensborn is well documented enough to get to the truth. 'News media' reports concerning Lebensborn are always sensationalist in nature, duh? They want to hook audiences and they cant do that with dull stories of homes for unwed mothers and a program which is 'pro-life' so throw 'percieved abuses' in such as the fact that SS men slept with BDM girls (traditionally underage by Western standards), create an image of stud farms and the plan for a super race (wasnt that the whole damn plan anyway?????)....

:roll:

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Panzerfaust XxX
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Post by Panzerfaust XxX » 23 Mar 2005 17:52

I watched a show on this topic. Select women would produce "ayran" babies with SS men. There were whole tables of babies crying. The babies belonged to the state to be trained from birth to be freaky "supermen" :roll: I could not begain to imagine if the Third Reich had won WWII. Think of what kind of pop culture they would come up with!

Try to picture the Nazi verson of superman or batman, they would likely come up with "Ayran man and Nordic boy". :lol:

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Vikki
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Post by Vikki » 27 Mar 2005 04:38

Panzerfaust,

Before you go into a History Channel-provoked frenzy on the subject, re-read “eindhoven’s” post above---or read it for the first time, if you didn’t bother to read it before you posted. Then do a search on the topic here, on the Forum, or elsewhere from reputable sources. I’ve listed just a few of the more than one hundred threads on the topic from this Forum below. Some of them are from several years ago, when the quality of the posts was more primary source-based, rather than the current trend of “I saw a movie once” posters. As you’re reading them, notice who says what, whether they cite sources, and what the sources are---in most cases, spurious media accounts cite NO sources. Then draw your own conclusions.

I hesitated to post my thoughts on this, as your profile lists you as a “9th grade student.” However, if you’re old enough to watch Schlacke on television and then make statements like this---

Panzerfaust XxX wrote:I watched a show on this topic. Select women would produce "ayran" babies with SS men. There were whole tables of babies crying. The babies belonged to the state to be trained from birth to be freaky "supermen" :roll: I could not begain to imagine if the Third Reich had won WWII. Think of what kind of pop culture they would come up with!

Try to picture the Nazi verson of superman or batman, they would likely come up with "Ayran man and Nordic boy". :lol:



---then you’re old enough to be warned that you’ve been listening to drivel. And I was introduced to critical historical analysis at not much a greater age than you’re at now.

Too bad that some of the other people who make similar posts about this, and other topics, don’t have your excuse of youth. Most of them should be old enough to know better.

~FV


“Lebensborn”
viewtopic.php?t=5848

Lebensborn (Note particularly Timo’s suggestions about SERIOUS books on the topic):
viewtopic.php?t=38667

Extracts from SS Soldiers Friend [Der Soldatenfreund] 1943
viewtopic.php?t=61203

Lebensborn – What was actually its aim
viewtopic.php?t=8281

The RuSHA Case - the Indictment
viewtopic.php?t=56401

The RuSHA Case -- the prosecution's argument
viewtopic.php?t=56404

The RuSHA Case - The Judgment of the Tribunal
viewtopic.php?t=56438

Famas_1
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Post by Famas_1 » 28 Mar 2005 23:15

Here's a blurb on Wegimont, a Lebensborn in Belgium. Marc Hillel writes about it in "Au Nom de la Race" (1975) (see side column in link below). The SS found this particular Lebensborn very disappointing, due to the local employees' "efforts to sabotage the production system of little Aryans" (bad attitudes, etc.). :lol:

L 'obsession de pureté raciale du régime nazi a entraîné les pires abominations avec l'extermination de ceux qu'Hitler et ses séides considéraient comme des sous-hommes. Parallèlement à cet holocauste, la politique raciale nazie ambitionnait aussi de créer une « superrace nordique ». Le Reichsführer SS Himmler encourageait ainsi les accouplements avec des Norvégiennes qu'il tenait pour des « déesses ». Il incitait aussi ses SS à procréer un maximum. La moyenne de quatre enfants par famille SS qu'il avait fixée comme objectif ne fut cependant jamais atteinte.

Pour assurer le développement de la race supérieure, les nazis développèrent aussi de singulières institutions dont l'existence n'est qu'effleurée dans les livres d'histoire : les « Lebensborn » (littéralement : « les fontaines de vie ») où des femmes et des hommes de pure souche aryenne devaient procréer des enfants répondant aux normes raciales du IIIe Reich. Une fois sevrés, les bambins nés de ces « unions temporaires » étaient confiés à des organisations nazies. Une quinzaine de ces « haras humains » furent créés en Allemagne, mais aussi au Danemark, en Norvège et en France....

http://www.regions.be/Rubriques/La_Une/page_5576_303443.shtml

michael mills
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Post by michael mills » 29 Mar 2005 07:59

The Hillel book on Lebensborn is sensationalist.

There is a very sober analysis in the book "Schatten der Vergangenheit".

In short, Lebensborn was set up to provide post-natal care for the wives and new-born children of SS-men. The Lebensborn centres were simply nurseries, and nothing more.

More controversially, Himmler demanded that unmarried women of acceptable ethnic background who had become pregnant by SS-men should also enjoy the services of Lebensborn, much to the chagrin of the respectable wives of SS-men.

Himmler's view was that illegitimate children of good racial stock (which children fathered by SS-men on Norwegian women were by definition) should not be discriminated against for the moralistic reason of their illegitimacy, but should should enjoy the same benefits as legitimate children. For Himmler all that mattered was the the racial value of the children, not whether their parents were formally married.

Sometimes the children of unmarried women admitted to the Lebensborn establishments were adopted by SS couples who were unable to have their own children, but that was not always the case. Often the children stayed with their mothers.

The Lebensborn establishments did not play a major role in the processing of Polish children taken from their parents and brought to Germany for germanisation. Usually such children were immediately adopted by childless German couples of the upper middle class.

So, no breeding farms, no pornographic high-jinks. It is unlikely that any sexual activity took place at the Lebensborn establishments, since the only people there were mothers, babies, and medical and nursing staff.

The driving force behind the impregnation of tens of thousands of women in the German-occupied countries, and the resultant processing of many of the children by Lebensborn, was not some breeding program, but simply the desite of lusty young men to get their rocks off.

It should be borne in mind that by far the majority of children fathered on Norwegian and other mothers by German soldiers did not pass through Lebensborn at all. Most remained in their native countries. Only a small minority of the mothers was assessed as of good racial value and admitted to the Lebensborn program.

Thus, not every illegitmate child fathered by a German soldier can properly be called a Lebensborn baby. The Abba woman almost certainly was not.

Famas_1
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Post by Famas_1 » 29 Mar 2005 16:39

michael mills wrote:The Hillel book on Lebensborn is sensationalist.

There is a very sober analysis in the book "Schatten der Vergangenheit".

The driving force behind the impregnation of tens of thousands of women in the German-occupied countries, and the resultant processing of many of the children by Lebensborn, was not some breeding program, but simply the desite of lusty young men to get their rocks off.


Good post, thank you. It's tough to properly judge an issue when you don't have access to a whole set of works due to linguistic difficulties.

Your second point is interesting -- if Himmler encouraged his SS to father children with Norwegian blonde goddesses to further the "master race" (or "des bons aryens" [bons a rien] :D ), then we may speak of some sort of breeding program, no matter how informal, which the Lebensborn were a part of (albeit minor in the end)?

michael mills
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Post by michael mills » 30 Mar 2005 00:55

Your second point is interesting -- if Himmler encouraged his SS to father children with Norwegian blonde goddesses to further the "master race" (or "des bons aryens" [bons a rien] ), then we may speak of some sort of breeding program, no matter how informal, which the Lebensborn were a part of (albeit minor in the end)?


Sensationalist nonsense, with some grains of truth.

Himmler wanted to increase the size of the German nation, and also upgrade its "racial value", by encouraging Germans of good racial stock (ie persons without any inherited diseases or other negative qualities such as criminality believed to be genetic in origin) to have large numbers of children, and discouraging the reproduction of Germans of lower value.

The encouragement to produce children was applied on a nationwide basis through such means as financial support for good families with large numbers of children.

Himmler regarded the SS as an elite representing German men of the highest racial quality. Therefore he required all its members to marry women of good racial stock and to have as many children as possible, at least four.

The brides of SS-men were subject to an examination to determine their genetic health. Permission to marry was only given if the bride passed the test.

SS-men who failed to marry, or who insisted on marrying "unsuitable" women, were discriminated against in promotion. One example is Wisliceny, who started as Eichmann's superior and finished up as his subordinate; he claimed it was because of his failure to marry.

The Lebensborn program was one of the measures designed to promote large families among SS-men, through the provision of material support to their wives when having children.

Contrary to sensationalist speculation, there was no specific encouragement to SS-men to father children out of wedlock, although there are reports that Himmler floated the idea of changing the German law to permit polygamy, to compensate for the loss of men during the war, the idea being that no German woman of good racial stock should be left without a husband, even if she had to share him. Whatever the truth of the reports, such suggestions went nowhere.

However, Himmler believed that if an SS-man did father children out of wedlock, those children should not be discriminated against, but receive the same benefits as German children born legitimately, provided the mother was of acceptable racial stock. That is why Norwegian women made pregnant by German soldiers were often admitted to the Lebensborn centres.

So, there was no program of "selective breeding" by inducing SS "stallions" to impregnate compliant German maidens.

What there was was a program of raising the German birthrate by encouraging marriage and large families through the provision of financial and other support to young couples, the same sort of program as was found in many countries.

It is a pity that the Lebensborn program, an admirable model of State support for young mothers and babies, even if one disagrees with the element of eugenic selection, should have become the subject of over-heated pornographic imaginations.

By the way, here in Australia we have a non-Government organisation called the Family Planning Association which aims to promote the reproductive health of the Australian population, including both contraception and support for young mothers.

Until just after the Second World War, that organisation was called the Racial Hygiene Association. That shows that eugenic ideas were not limited to National Socialist Germany.

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Vikki
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Post by Vikki » 31 Mar 2005 03:28

Herr Mills,

Thank you very much for your posts. Although I'm unfamiliar with the facts in a few of your points (i.e., that most non-German mothers and children weren't processed through Lebensborn homes), the majority agree with what I've read and concluded from primary sources on the subject. Your summary serves as a good counter to over-sensationalised views on the topic.

~FV

szopen
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Post by szopen » 31 Mar 2005 07:45

Again, while practices described by Mr. Mills were not anything unusual, unusual were practices not described by him (kidnapping of children in occupied countries)

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Truffelschwein
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Post by Truffelschwein » 31 Mar 2005 08:59

About the black haired baby's being killed..That's utter nonsense. Just a few weeks ago I was watching a history channel production about that very thing and they showed numeorus still living offspring from the project who had black hair and brown eyes.
Not to mention numeorus films showing children of the such tons had dark hair.

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waffen
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Post by waffen » 01 Apr 2005 01:14

:D hi interesting post. ? do any records still exixt from the ss childrens homes?...there would have to be thousands of teens who were still being cared for in 1945.. has anyone written a book about there time in any of the many locations these children were staying.?

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Alfred Naujocks
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Post by Alfred Naujocks » 02 Apr 2005 08:36

They sound cute! I want one :D

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Panzerfaust XxX
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Post by Panzerfaust XxX » 06 Apr 2005 06:04

[quote="Fraulein Valkyrie"]Panzerfaust,

Too bad that some of the other people who make similar posts about this, and other topics, don’t have your excuse of youth. Most of them should be old enough to know better.

~FV


No, no one can use their age as any form of excuse. I don't want special treatment I want equal. If I commited a crime and they wanted to put me on trail as a kid. I would demand that they give me a "adult" punishment. I would hope they would treat me as a adult and give me a hard punishment in prison and not some little boot camp were they send bad kids.

If I am wrong it is not because of my age, but because I have not resreached enough. I find it very offending that you would dare talk about my age. I have no excuses for my actions, and do not try to make them up for me. Do not talk down to me. It is hard being a "minor" because I am not free to make my own choices. I want a vasectomy (I hate babies) but both my parents say "you are to young to make that choice" but I know I am ready, I know myself better than anyone including my parents or any so called "adult". They say I will want kids in the future, however I have a correction to make for them. They want grand kids! Also they are trying to set up a deterrent for me not to have sex.

I find it a insult that you would bring up my age, I don't take kindly to anyone who thinks they have power of me.

Famas_1
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Post by Famas_1 » 06 Apr 2005 15:45

Ok, someone kill this thread already.

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eindhoven
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Post by eindhoven » 06 Apr 2005 18:36

Panzerfaust. I dont believe anyone flamed you here because of your age. I am not sure what your views on children and your preference to not have any have anything to do with Lebensborn other than the sterilization of undesirable racial stock. Reading your statement was certainly shocking, particularly coming from someone of your age. That is not meant as a slight. The entire topic of Lebensborn will somehow delve into reproduction and the policy of the Reich at some point. The opposite end of the spectrum from Lebensborn was sterilization or worse.

It is admirable that you are here to learn and to provide your insights/perceptions to older historians, researchers, enthusiasts. Your views are based on the material you have seen so far. Fraulein Valkyrie pointed you into research directions to better your knowledge as did others.

Take care.

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