about Marine Divisionen

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BM Thiry
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about Marine Divisionen

Post by BM Thiry » 12 Mar 2005 10:59

Good morning all,
step by step

Strange the Marinen Divisionen in august 1914:

viewtopic.php?t=72998


There was only 2 infantry regiments ! in the "Mar Inf Bri" strange for a infantry division
then 2 X 3400 = 6 800 men!

and with 2 artillery regiments in the "Matr Art Bri"
with 6 battalions, strange for a division
then 2 (regiment) X 3(battalion) X 18 = 108 guns!

Is it the goog deduction? :roll:
may be, there is confusion between infantry and artillery?
the abbreviation is "Art" as artillery but the battalion symbol is an infantry drawing !

than you very much for your correcting :wink:

BM
Thiry

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BM Thiry
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Re: about Marine Divisionen

Post by BM Thiry » 12 Mar 2005 11:14

BM Thiry wrote:Good morning all,
step by step

Strange the Marinen Divisionen in august 1914:

viewtopic.php?t=72998


There was only 2 infantry regiments ! in the "Mar Inf Bri" strange for a infantry division
then 2 X 3400 = 6 800 men!

and with 2 artillery regiments in the "Matr Art Bri"
with 6 battalions, strange for a division
then 2 (regiment) X 3(battalion) X 18 = 108 guns!

Is it the goog deduction? :roll:
may be, there is confusion between infantry and artillery?
the abbreviation is "Art" as artillery but the battalion symbol is an infantry drawing !

thank you very much for your correcting :wink:

BM
Thiry

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Peter H
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Post by Peter H » 13 Mar 2005 08:22

Bertrand,

You must remember the Marine division was an ad hoc formation formed mainly from surplus naval reservists,on the 29th August 1914.

In 1914:

1. & 2. Naval Regiments

1. & 2. Ldw Field Artillery Detachments(from X Corps District)

1. Ldw Cavalry Squadron(from X Corps District)

No Pioneers attached.

Regards,
Peter

bob lembke
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Marine Division

Post by bob lembke » 13 Mar 2005 10:49

Guys;

Was just going to say what Peter said. The division was thrown together in days and rushed into Belgium under an admiral (Schröder?) to join the III. Reserve Armeekorps (where my grand-father was the "Id" of the Generalkommando) in facing off against the bulk of the Belgian Army under King Albert and the Brit Naval Division under Lt. Churchill* centered on Antwerp, to hold this northern flank as the bulk of the German Army poured through Brussels below them and pressed on to the west.

* Churchill, First Sea Lord, pulled his Naval Division together and rushed to Antwerp, leaving his post in London. He cabled the Cabinet asking that he be granted a proper rank, suggesting being made a Major General. One Cabinet minister said: "That seems reasonable. Winston was a lieutenant in the ????????? (some obscure regiment) for a couple of years." The Cabinet exploded into a hurricane of laughter. They declined to anoint him Major-General and in a few days he was fleeing with part of his command, the rest fleeing into Holland and internment. Never a detail man, and impressed with how the 42 cm Dicke Berta howitzers smashed the Belgian forts about Antwerp, he then planned his Gallipoli screw-up, assuming his flat-firing battleship guns (with the wrong ammo) could do the same to the old Turkish forts.

Bob Lembke

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Peter H
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Post by Peter H » 14 Mar 2005 09:33

Bob.

The Churchill Major-General story originated from the pen of one Lord Esher(in his book the The Tragedy of Lord Kitchener).Churchill in his memoirs denies the story,writing in 1927 "it is remarkable that Lord Esher should be so much astray:for during the war I showed him the text of the telegrams printed in this chapter and now made public for the first time.We must conclude that an uncontrollable fondness for fiction forbade him to forsake it for fact.Such constancy is a defect in an historian".

Churchill's memoirs also mention that he suggested a second Gallipoli campaign in 1916---attack where the enemy lest expects it!! :o

Strange as well that a General Paris commanded the Royal Naval Division at Antwerp,and a General French commanded the BEF.

A young Wilhelm Keitel later joined the staff of Ludwig von Schröder's Marinekorps.



Some excellent contemporary articles,photos of the Antwerp 1914 battle can be found here:

http://www.greatwardifferent.com/Great_ ... ntwerp.htm

http://www.greatwardifferent.com/Great_ ... nes_01.htm

Image
http://www.greatwardifferent.com/Great_ ... n%2002.jpg

Regards,
Peter

bob lembke
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Churchill's alleged quote

Post by bob lembke » 14 Mar 2005 16:51

Peter;

What a pity the Churchill story seems to be false; it is a good one. I do not always remember my sources (In writing a book I would of course be more careful, but as it was an alleged incident that a couple of dozen important and literate people would have witnessed, it is surprising that Esher made it up. But we know the rubbish that so many people write.

I assume that you believe Churchill over Esher, correct? I am amused in the small part my family had in confounding Churchill in WW I, my grand-father's role in the success of the 42 cm howitzers in quickly smashing up the Belgian fortresses, presumably impressing him; and secondly, the very little role my father had is messing things up for him at Gallipoli, after the very different guns of the Queen Elisabeth were not able to do that well against the Turkish forts. Of course the forts were not the only problem, the mines were, and the minefields were covered by mobile batteries of medium caliber guns, partially manned or at least led by Germans, that von Sanders had organized to protect the minefields from the effortys of he Brits in cleaning up those minefields.

While on the topic of Chrchillian quotes, did he really say, in 1938, something like: "I would hope that England, if in an hour of need, would have a man such as Herr Hitler at its helm." Or possibly a bit earlier in time.

It was a point of amusement in my family that, on my mother's side, a larger percentage of my English relatives were Nazi sympathisers than among their German cousins. The most impressive, Lady Phyliss (sp?), who I was fortunate to meet in London before she passed away, who lived in Germany in the 1930's, did make a similar statement. She used to say; "Ah, Hitler, what a Mensch!" Incidentally, I am researching the quite distinct possibility that she (and then I as well) was/is Jewish. That would be a hoot.

Bob Lembke

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BM Thiry
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Post by BM Thiry » 14 Mar 2005 16:52

good morning

do you know this link?


http://www.1914-1918.net/63div.htm

regards
Bertrand

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Regulus 1
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Post by Regulus 1 » 22 Mar 2005 00:00

Hi,

Marinekorps Flandern

12 December 1914 situation

1. Marine Division

- Marine Infanterie Brigade with Marine Infanterie Regimente 1 and 2
- 1 Marine Brigade with the 1 Matrosen Regiment and 1 Matrosen Artillerie Regiment
- 2 Marine Brigade with the 1 Landwehr Eskadron of the X Armee korps, 1e Landwehr Feld Artillerie Abteilung of the X Armee Korps, 2 Marine Pionier Kompagnie, 2e Matrosen Regiment, 2e Matrosen Artillerie Regiment

2. Marine Division
- 3e Marine Brigade with the 3e Marine Infanterie Regiment, 3e Matrosen Regiment
- 4e Marine Brigade with the 4e and 5e Matrosen Regimente, 3e Landwehr Eskadron of the IX Armee korps and the 1e and 2e Marine Feldbatterie and the 3e Marine Pioniere Kompagnie

There was also a 3rd Division formed on the 3rd June 1917
Situation on the unit on the 1st July 1917

- Marine Infanterie Brigade with the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Marine Infanterie Regimente, 3e Eskadron Husaren 7e Reg, 9e Feldartillerie Reg (2e Abt. Kan., 1e Abt leichte Feldhoubitsen), 115 Pioniers bataillon (with 1 Reserve Kompagnie 24 Marine Bataillon), Marine Pioniers Versuchs Kompagnie, 160 Minenwerfer Komp. and Fernsprech Abt. 293

Best from Johan :wink:

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Peter H
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Post by Peter H » 22 Mar 2005 10:34

The calibre of manning of these divisions also improved 1916-18.At best the 1914-15 formations were full of naval reservists,equivalent in age group to the later Landwehr years.From 1916 the same draft pool as used by the Army was used to fill the ranks:Seebattalion personnel were also added.

A postcard I have from Ostend in 1917.Old and new hands together.

Image
files/ostende_2.jpg

Some excellent photos can also be found here on Wehrmacht-Awards.com:

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/ ... php?t=9360

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/ ... hp?t=10441

graf
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Marine Pioneers

Post by graf » 23 Mar 2005 10:12

postmarked to the 1st Marine Division 28.4.1916, most seem fairly young & fit... I'd love to get my hands on that 98a!
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Regulus 1
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Post by Regulus 1 » 27 Mar 2005 18:01

Peter,

Officially the Seebataillone stopped existing under that name in December 1916. That's why they are not mentioned in the list of December 1914 also.

Do you know my forum on the Kaiserliche Marine ?

http://www.voy.com/65298/

Best from Johan

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Peter H
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Post by Peter H » 28 Mar 2005 00:22

Johan,

An excellent forum. :)

Your book should also be acknowledged:

http://uboat.net/books/item/2067

Best regards,
Peter

Nolfster
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Post by Nolfster » 18 Jan 2008 18:54

Stamps of the 1. and 2. Mar-Div I gues everyone have seen before..
Here a more seldom stamp from the third Marine Division,
of 1918.
"Besatzungskompagnie".
Regards,
Wouter
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Fallschirmjäger
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Post by Fallschirmjäger » 05 Feb 2008 05:34

Well this is an old thread i had not seen,thanks.

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Volcano
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Re: about Marine Divisionen

Post by Volcano » 18 Apr 2008 00:55


1. Marine Division

- Marine Infanterie Brigade with Marine Infanterie Regimente 1 and 2
- 1 Marine Brigade with the 1 Matrosen Regiment and 1 Matrosen Artillerie Regiment
- 2 Marine Brigade with the 1 Landwehr Eskadron of the X Armee korps, 1e Landwehr Feld Artillerie Abteilung of the X Armee Korps, 2 Marine Pionier Kompagnie, 2e Matrosen Regiment, 2e Matrosen Artillerie Regiment

2. Marine Division
- 3e Marine Brigade with the 3e Marine Infanterie Regiment, 3e Matrosen Regiment
- 4e Marine Brigade with the 4e and 5e Matrosen Regimente, 3e Landwehr Eskadron of the IX Armee korps and the 1e and 2e Marine Feldbatterie and the 3e Marine Pioniere Kompagnie
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know exactly how many guns were assigned to the two Marine Divisions in 1914? I know that the Matrosen Artillerie Regiment assigned to Marine.Bde.1 was actually used as infantry, so the only artillery seems to be supplied by the Ladwehr Abt. My guess is that this was two 6 gun batteries of 7.7cm FK 96, is this correct? What about the 2nd Marine FA assigned to the 2.Marine Division? Cron seems to imply that this division had no artillery to speak of in 1914.

Thanks.

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