Günsche and Fegelein Execution

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jwolfman
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Günsche and Fegelein Execution

Post by jwolfman » 11 Apr 2005 06:21

Just some interesting information.

According to the History Channel Documentary "Hitler's End" produced in 2005,
a piece of information that I have never heard until now, and that is that Russian Archive documentation seems to indicate that Hitler wasn't particularly adamant about having Hermann Fegelein shot (as is the popular story), but that it was Otto Gunsche who insisted that Fegelein should be shot for desertion.
An SS man, Kurt Larson, who belonged to the party that picked Fegelein up said that Hitler really didn't care that much whether Fegelein got away or not. So maybe Gunsche was the one who made sure that Fegelein was executed. I don't know, the whole incident is cloudy.

Any thoughts on this seemingly new Gunsche revelation?

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Post by Mark Costa » 11 Apr 2005 13:00

I too, saw the documentary last night and this is a new story completely. Also the SS man Kurt Larson who related the story as well, is one that I have never heard of before and I am a researcher of the SS Begleitkommando unit that guarded Hitler. So he is new to me. Also his story about Fegelein being shot while trying to "escape" custody seems a little far fetched as Fegelein was definately in custody and bound according to Mohnke, Axmann and others. Fegelein was supposedly shot in the Reichchancellery courtyard and Larson tells a totally different story. The documents in the Russian archives are obviously real and Guensche may have been disgusted that a fellow SS officer had betrayed the Fuhrer so his story is plausible but I have my doubts about Larson's version.

Mark Costa

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Jeremy Chan
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Post by Jeremy Chan » 12 Apr 2005 09:23

While I haevn't personally seen Hitler's End, that contradicts all other existing eports of witnesses and documentation, of which I've observed. Fegelein was very definitely shot while trying to escape; he was apprehended, yes, in his home while trying to make good his escape. The fact that he was bound for Switzerland dressed in mufti with a considerable sum of cash (around US$5000, IIRC) and Eva and Gretl Braun's jewellery, sealed his fate, compounded to the fact that he, as a member of Hitler's entourage, was about to desert his Führer, the Führer's staff and his wife and sister-in-law.
While Günsche was a 'mere' captain, he was still Hitler's adjutant, and may have had a say in this, as he was among Hitler's entourage. He was definitely hauled to the Reichs-Chancellery gardens and executed though. By then, Hitler was in enough of a rage at being deserted from all quarters, as Fegelein had been a liaison between Hitler and Himmler, was had just arranged a defection. Cheers. :)

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Post by eindhoven » 12 Apr 2005 21:01

I watched Hitlers End as well and found it extremely plausible for Gunsche to have ordered this and in character with both Gunsche and Fegelein. Gunsche as a captain is without doubt loyal whereas Fegelein as General abandoned his oath. Not only to Führer but also to SS. Had I been Gunsche, I imagine I would not have hesitated to have him shot as well for anything so much as a flinch. Lackey Fegelein.

History Channel must be balanced. They also trumpeted Fegelein as Pripet Marsh war criminal and seducer of young Chancellory girls, of course Traudl Junge was able to resist yet according to 'the obvious from these photos' it is implied he was sleeping with both Eva and Gretl Braun and trying to get into anything that wore skirt and heels, setting the stage for viewer contempt. I tend to believe he actually had to do something to win those awards/decorations and that his position while favorable by marraige wasnt handed to him by the same Führer who believed in social Darwinism.

It was, sensationlism withstanding, a decent program but really not much new in the arena of what went down in Berlin in the last days. Here they have these Secret Soviet documents and all they can find is a broader view of Fegeleins demise. Nothing on Bormann for instance.
Last edited by eindhoven on 12 Apr 2005 22:07, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by eindhoven » 12 Apr 2005 21:27

Nice images to put together.



[Moderator Note~ I am sorry, but have to delete the images you posted as they were copyright-protected images from the Walter Frentz collection {and the son of Herrn Frentz is known to vigorously seek prosecution for unauthorized use of these and other color photos taken by his father}/Best wishes, ~ Mike Miller]

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Dieter Zinke
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Re: Gunsche and Fegelein Execution

Post by Dieter Zinke » 13 Apr 2005 07:32

jwolfman wrote:Just some interesting information.
According to the History Channel Documentary "Hitler's End" produced in 2005,
a piece of information that I have never heard until now, and that is that Russian Archive documentation seems to indicate that Hitler wasn't particularly adamant about having Hermann Fegelein shot (as is the popular story), but that it was Otto Günsche who insisted that Fegelein should be shot for desertion.
An SS man, Kurt Larson, who belonged to the party that picked Fegelein up said that Hitler really didn't care that much whether Fegelein got away or not. So maybe Günsche was the one who made sure that Fegelein was executed. I don't know, the whole incident is cloudy.
Any thoughts on this seemingly new Gunsche revelation?
I saw it yesterday evening in german TV too.
I' m not convinced at all and had to settle that the Günsche-responsibility was not proved, also the attestation by Kurt Larson was only another story.
My result: Forget it !!

DZ

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Post by jwolfman » 13 Apr 2005 07:42

Why is it that everyone says Fegelein was shot and yet no one seems to know who did it?

Everytime someone from the bunker was asked what happened to Fegelein the answer is always the same "I heard he was shot." Everyone heard he was shot yet no one saw it or participated in the execution it seems. So who shot Fegelein? No SS man from the bunker has claimed responsibility nor does any SS man from the bunker seem to know specifically who pulled the trigger. It couldn't have been a firing squad because Fegelein was a coward and would not have stood still against a wall long enough to allow himself to be shot.

Does anyone know who killed Fegelein?
I'm just curious who would be given the assignment by Hitler to personally shoot an SS General.

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Dieter Zinke
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Post by Dieter Zinke » 13 Apr 2005 10:16

According to
“Die Generale der Waffen-SS und der Polizei“
by Andreas Schulz and myself
(with corrections and supplements)

27.04.1945
als Hitler erfährt, dass der Reichsführer-SS Kapitulationsverhandlungen mit den Westalliierten aufgenommen hat, sucht er einen Sündenbock. Fegeleins Abwesenheit im Führerbunker wird festgestellt. Sein inzwischen zurückgekehrter Adjutant wird sofort vom Chef der Dienststelle des Reichssicherheitshauptamtes beim Führer, Kriminaldirektor Peter Högl, vernommen. Dieser gibt zu Protokoll, gemeinsam mit Fegelein in dessen Privatwohnung (Bleibtreustraße 4 in Charlottenburg) gegangen zu sein, wo dieser Zivil angelegt und ihm vorgeschlagen habe, das Gleiche zu tun. Aus diesen Aussagen ergibt sich ein offensichtlicher Treuebruch Fegeleins, den der Adjutant nicht mittragen wollte, weshalb er in Uniform in die Reichskanzlei zurückkehrte. Hitler schickt eine Gruppe des Führerbegleitkommandos los, nachdem sein Sicherheitschef, SS-Gruppenführer Hans Rattenhuber (und möglicherweise auch Fegeleins Schwägerin Eva Braun) ihn am Telefon nicht zur Rückkehr bewegen konnten. Erst das zweite Kommando, nun unter Högl selbst, welches Fegelein dann auch in seiner Privatwohnung bereits in Zivil und mit Fluchtgepäck (105.725 Reichsmark, 3186 Schweizer Franken, Goldstücke,) betrunken antrifftt, bringt ihn umgehend in den Bunker der Reichskanzlei zurück (die Version, die nur bei E. G. Krätschmer [Die Ritterkreuzträger der Waffen-SS] ohne Beleg zu finden ist, ist zu abenteuerlich, um hier Erwähnung zu finden). Dort teilt ihm Generalmajor der Waffen-SS Wilhelm Mohnke, Kommandeur des Verteidigungsabschnitts “Zitadelle“ (Reichskanzlei) seine Degradierung, Ausstoßung aus der SS und die Aberkennung aller Orden und Ehrenzeichen mit. Der wütende Fegelein reist sich selbst die Schulterstücke herunter, bevor Mohnke ein Standgericht einberuft. Eva Brauns Bitte um Gnade wird von Hitler schroff abgelehnt. Die Volltrunkenheit des Delinqenten lässt die Verhandlung platzen, er wird für 24 Stunden zur Ausnüchterung in einer provisorischen Zelle arretiert.

28.04.1945
“scharfes Verhör“ durch Gestapochef Heinrich Müller im Bunker der Reichskanzlei (Angabe: Seeger. Nach Joachim Fest ereignet sich das “scharfe Verhör“ noch am 27.04.1945 im Keller der nahe gelegenen Dreifaltigkeitskirche). Inzwischen fängt Heinz Lorenz die Meldung der Nachrichtenagentur Reuter über Himmlers Verrat auf. Hitlers Wut sucht ein Opfer, zumal in Fegeleins Dienstraum im Führerbunker Hinweise auf Kontakte des Reichsführers-SS zu Graf Folke Bernadotte gefunden werden. Dieses Mal kommt kein Gnadengesuch mehr von Eva Braun, die inzwischen erfahren hatte, dass ein Teil der bei Fegelein sicher gestellten Juwelen ihr gehört. Außerdem ist sie verbittert, weil er ihre schwangere Schwester (Die gemeinsame Tochter Eva wird am 05.05.1945 geboren) betrügt (in seiner Wohnung hielt sich bei seiner Verhaftung die rothaarige Ehefrau eines ungarischen Diplomaten auf; nach Bahnsen / James O‘Donnell, "The Bunker", Seite 203, wird die Annahme geäußert, dass die Dame ("The Lady Vanished" bzw "Das Leck"). britische Geheimagentin war. Sie hieß Mata O'Hara (Deckname ?), war Irin, groß, rothaarig, und sehr attraktiv. Nach Richard Crossman, british M.P. und Journalist (1955) erhielt sie das Victoria Cross. Sie ist verschollen.
Quelle: robhill, viewtopic.php?t=59004&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15. Nach Joachim Fest hat Fegelein auch Eva Braun selbst Avancen gemacht; sonstige Angaben nach Below, Boldt, Fest, Kershaw, Ryan, Schneider, Seeger).

29.04.1945
in der ersten Nachthälfte (nach Fest kurz vor Mitternacht des 28.04.1945) auf den 29.04. auf Befehl Hitlers in der Nähe des Ausgangs zum Garten der Reichskanzlei durch Angehörige des Reichssicherheitsdienstes (RSD) standrechtlich erschossen

Sources:
Below, Nikolaus von: Als Hitlers Adjutant 1937 - 1945, Mainz 1980
Boldt, Gerhard: Hitler Die letzten 10 Tage, Frankfurt am Main 1973
Fest, Joachim: Der Untergang. Hitler und das Ende des Dritten Reiches, Berlin 2002
Kershaw, Jan: Hitler 1936 - 1945, Stuttgart 2000
O’Donnell, James P. und Uwe Bahnsen: Die Katakombe. Das Ende in der Reichskanzlei, Stuttgart 1975
Ryan, Cornelius: Der letzte Kampf, München 1966
Schneider, Jost W.: Verleihung genehmigt! Their honor was loyalty. Eine Bild- und Dokumentationsgeschichte der Ritterkreuzträger der Waffen-SS und Polizei 1940 - 1945. R. James Bender Publishing, San Jose California / USA, 2. Auflage, (Ca) 1993
Seeger, Andreas: “Gestapo-Müller“: Die Karriere eines Schreibtischtäters. Metropol Verlag, Berlin 1996


There is no requirement to add the names Kurt Larson and / or Otto Günsche as acting persons in this connection !!

DZ

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Post by jwolfman » 13 Apr 2005 19:25

Has anyone identified the RSD man who allegedly pulled the trigger?
Did he survive Berlin? If so did he ever admit to being given the assignment to shoot Fegelein?

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Post by eindhoven » 13 Apr 2005 20:12

Mike-No worries. I did not know this but will remember in the future for my own sake and everyone elses.

Mark Costa
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Post by Mark Costa » 14 Apr 2005 03:44

In my earlier statement of Fegelein being shot while escaping I meant that Larson stated that Fegelein was actually while trying escape custody at the Reichschancellery as opposed to be shot by firing squad. Larson made it sound as if Fegelein started to run and was shot down. This we are pretty sure did not happen as Fegelein was bound and at some point even gagged as he was spouting off at the mouth because he was drunk as well.

What is really interesting is that no one ever saw Fegelein actually shot.
No one has ever claimed responsibility as a gunman.
And no body was ever found.
Maybe ole Hermann just vanished into the woodwork like Heinrich Muller!!!!!
There were certainly other SS men who were not loyal and couldn't wait to get out of there !!! Maybe they managed to get Fegelein away too!!!

Mark Costa

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Post by Dieter Zinke » 14 Apr 2005 16:13

Mark Costa wote:
There were certainly other SS men who were not loyal and couldn't wait to get out of there !!! Maybe they managed to get Fegelein away too!!!
Hitler was still alive when Fegelein was shot and you may be sure that there was no chance for Fegelein to escape.
In the bunker were at that time Rattenhuber, Mohnke, "Gestapo"-Müller, Bormann, Goebbels and other hardliners to control the execution.
No chance for any fancy !!

DZ

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Annelie
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Post by Annelie » 14 Apr 2005 16:23

In the movie the "Untergang" there is an interesting bit where Bruno Ganz (Hitler) screams and bangs on his dest.............
Fegelein, Fegelein. He orders that they bring him Fegelein from an brothel I believe and the next shot is Fegelein being shot in the courtyard.

Interesting movie, I am sure they must have done some research for this scene?

Annelie

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Post by jwolfman » 15 Apr 2005 07:56

Some final notes of observation on this mystery-

According to SS Oberscharfuhrer Rochus Misch, Fegelein may have been shot in a cellar by two men of the RSD.
He also said that Hitler's wedding was delayed for at least twenty minutes so that Hitler could consult with Muller and Rattenhuber to make sure that Fegelein was dead.

SS Sturmbannfuhrer Franz Schaedle, Chief of the SS Begleit Kommando, sustained a severe foot or leg schrapnel wound on April 28th, the same day as Fegelein's execution. Any connection? The reason I bring it up is because I can't concieve of any reason why the head of Hitler's bodyguard detail would get wounded unless he had a specific reason to leave the safety of the bunker. Could it have been to take Fegelein out in the open to shoot him or at least supervise his execution?
One more thing, Muller apparently had a squad of Gestapo men at his disposal including SS Standartenfuhrer Wilhelm Bock who committed suicide in the bunker on May 1st.
Fegelein could have been shot by one of these Muller henchman.

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Post by Roderick » 03 Oct 2005 03:14

Annelie wrote: He orders that they bring him Fegelein from an brothel


Some sources say Fegelein was not in a brothel.

It's believed SS Standartenfuhrer Hoegl was to find Fegelein and went out into Charlottenburg area of Berlin, where Hermann lived, and there, in his OWN HOUSE, found him quietly resting on his bed, in civilian clothes.

Roderick

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