Jagd Panther Actions

david Cotton · Post by **david Cotton** » 27 Jul 2005 20:53

Hello Michael
Looks like a good book, but its expensive, we are talking £65 British.

The write up makes it sound well worth the money, so I think I may be saving up for this one.

Thanks

Ron Klages · Post by **Ron Klages** » 27 Jul 2005 21:49

Hi all,

Here is my latest cut at the allocation of Jagdpanthers. This list totals 419 of which 9 went to test, training and other uses in Germany, 320 went to the western front and 90 went to the eastern initially. I say initially since some of the western units did end up fightin in the east in the latter days of the conflict. In the list below the first date is the shipping date and the second date [where known] is the receipt date by the unit. You will note that there is not always a second date.

Best regards to all,

Ron Klages

Waffenamt ? November 1943 1 Test and training Home
Waffenamt ? December 1943 1 Test and training Home
Versuch ? January 1944 5 Test and training Home
Mielau ? March 1944 2 Test and training Home
s Pz.Jg. Abt. 654 28 April 1944 8 4-May-44 Heeres Truppen West
s Pz.Jg. Abt. 559 ? April 1944 5 Heeres Truppen West
s Pz.Jg. Abt. 654 14 June 1944 9 19-Jun-44 Heeres Truppen West
s Pz.Jg. Abt. 654 14 June 1944 8 20-Jun-44 Heeres Truppen West
s Pz.Jg. Abt. 654 6 July 1944 1 28-Jul-44 Heeres Truppen West
s Pz.Jg. Abt. 654 31 July 1944 8 3-Aug-44 Heeres Truppen West
s Pz.Jg. Abt. 654 14 August 1944 8 16-Aug-44 Heeres Truppen West
s Pz.Jg. Abt. 559 ? August 1944 8 Heeres Truppen West
s Pz.Jg. Abt. 519 ? September 1944 17 Heeres Truppen West
s Pz.Jg. Abt. 559 ? September 1944 17 Heeres Truppen West
s Pz.Jg. Abt. 560 ? October 1944 4 Heeres Truppen West
s Pz.Jg. Abt. 654 13 October 1944 9 14-Oct-44 Heeres Truppen West
s Pz.Jg. Abt. 654 21 October 1944 7 23-Oct-44 Heeres Truppen West
s Pz.Jg. Abt. 560 ? November 1944 5 Heeres Truppen West
s Pz.Jg. Abt. 654 13 November 1944 6 Heeres Truppen West
s Pz.Jg. Abt. 655 ? November 1944 5 Heeres Truppen West
s Pz.Jg. Abt. 654 20 December 1944 10 25-Dec-44 Heeres Truppen West
s Pz.Jg. Abt. 654 21 December 1944 10 27-Dec-44 Heeres Truppen West
s Pz.Jg. Abt. 655 ? December 1944 9 Heeres Truppen West
s Pz.Jg. Abt. 519 ? December 1944 4 Heeres Truppen West
s Pz.Jg. Abt. 560 ? December 1944 4 Heeres Truppen West
s Pz.Jg. Abt. 560 ? January 1945 12 Heeres Truppen West
s Pz.Jg. Abt. 559 ? January 1945 6 Heeres Truppen West
s Pz.Jg. Abt. 519 ? January 1945 6 Heeres Truppen West
s Pz.Jg. Abt. 563 ? January 1945 10 Heeres Truppen East
3./s Pz. Jg,.Abt. 616 ? January 1945 9 Heeres Truppen East
I./ Pz.Rgt. 29 22 January 1945 14 Panzer Brigade 103 East
s Pz.Jg. Abt. 654 25 January 1945 10 2-Feb-45 Heeres Truppen West
2./ Pz. Lehr Rgt. 130 10 February 1945 14 Panzer Lehr Division West
8./SS Pz.Rgt. 2 14 February 1945 10 2. SS Panzer Division East
3./Pz.Rgt. 35 14 February 1945 8 4. Panzer Division East
4./SS Pz.Rgt. 9 14 February 1945 10 9. SS Panzer Division East
3./ Pz.Rgt. 101 15 February 1945 10 Führer-Grenadier Division East
s Pz.Jg. Abt. 654 24 February 1945 6 26-Feb-45 Heeres Truppen West
SS Pz.Jg. Abt. 10 28 February 1945 10 10. SS Panzer Division East
s Pz.Jg. Abt. 559 13 March 1945 5 Heeres Truppen West
I./Pz.Rgt. 16 27 March 1945 15 30-Mar-45 116. Panzer Division West
I./Pz.Rgt. 9 30 March 1945 4 25. Panzer Division East
2./s Pz. Abt. 507 ? March 1945 3 Heeres Truppen West
II./Pz. Lehr Rgt. 130 7 April 1945 35 Panzer Lehr Division West
s Pz.Jg. Abt. 655 8 April 1945 10 Heeres Truppen West
SS KampfGruppe "Wiking" 8 April 1945 7 8-Apr-45 Heeres Truppen West
s Pz.Jg. Abt. 559 17 April 1945 10 Heeres Truppen West
s Pz.Jg. Abt. 559 21 April 1945 9 Heeres Truppen West
4./Pz. Abt. 2106 ? April 1945 5 Panzer Division Clausewitz East
s Pz.Jg. Abt. 655 ? April 1945 10 Heeres Truppen West

Total of 419 Jagpanthers allocated

Jan-Hendrik · Post by **Jan-Hendrik** » 27 Jul 2005 21:56

Very interesting !

According to my research II./130 only received 32 an April 45, not 35 . Where does your number came from ?

Jan-Hendrik

Ron Klages · Post by **Ron Klages** » 27 Jul 2005 23:11

Jan-Hendrick,

I thought 32 was the number also but in the magazine AFV Modeler No. 1 there is an article by Martin Block and John Nelson regarding the Jagdpanthers of II./ Lehr Regiment 130 and in this article they note that II./PR 130 picked up 35 Jadpanthers from the Heereszuegamt in Braunschweig. These had been originally intended for the 2. PD but because of the lack of rail-transport cars they were picked up by II./PR 130 instead. This actually occurred on 6 April and on 7 April the men of II./PR 130 prepared the Jagdpanthers for action. The 35 Jagdpanthers were number as follows:

Stab with II01, II02, II03
5. Kp. with 501, 502,511,512,513,521,522,523
6. Kp. with 601, 602,611,612,613,621,622,623
7. Kp. with 701, 702,711,712,713,721,722,723
8. Kp. with 801, 802,811,812,813,821,822,823

At dusk they began a road march on the autobaun 35km to the west. They formed a security line in the area of Edemissen-Haemelerwal-Burgdorf with the 5.KP. on the right and the 8. KP. on the left. They remained here for several days of inactivity.On 11 April II./PR130 had it's first contact with US troops [US 11 Cav. Regt.] that was pushing eastward from Burgdorf. They arrived on the left-flank of II./PR 130. On the right -flank CCR of the US 5.Armored Div was also engaged. At the end of the day there were only 9 operational Jagdpanther.

On 12 April these 9 moved east and arrived at Wendesberg [7km nw of Braunschweig]. Here all the 9 Jagpanthers were blown up by the crews since they bridges were all knocked out and they were trapped. The crews dispersed and II./PR 130 ceased to exist.

The article goes on to state that at least two other Jagdpanthers from II./PR 130 managed to move eastward on their own with one under command of Fw. Feuerpfeil destroying 3 Shermans near the Elbe River before he abandoned the Jagdpanther. Another Jagdpanther under the command of Fw. Stock made it to the Elbe River at Rogätz [20km nne of Magdeburg on the night of 12/13 April where he was attached to an unknown kampfgruppw. On the morrning of 13 April he engaged elements of the US 30ID and he was able to destroy 2 Shermans prior to his Jadpanther being struck at least 12 times forcing the abandonment of the Jagdpanther.

So there is what Martin and John had to say regarding the Jagdpanthers of II.PR 130.

Given Martin and Johns record for accuracy, I have revised the figure from 32 to 35.

Best regards,

Ron Klages

Jan-Hendrik · Post by **Jan-Hendrik** » 28 Jul 2005 08:14

Thank you very much , Ron ! That is really good input

What I can add to this is that those vehicles lacked by productional mistakes ! Following the local archive of Edemissen ( north of Peine ) a lot of Jagdpanthers had been given up because they caught fire in the engine system due to an error in the oil cooling system .

Jan-Hendrik

Ron Klages · Post by **Ron Klages** » 28 Jul 2005 18:10

Jan-Hendrick,

Thank you for that inormation because I was wondering how II/PR 130 lost so many Jagpanthers so quickly.

Was production accomplished by forced labor?

Sort of looks like sabotage.

Ron Klages

david Cotton · Post by **david Cotton** » 28 Jul 2005 18:33

Hello all
Interesting and detailed stuff.

Any opinions on why the Germans committed so many to the west. I would of thougt that the 88mm would of been needed on the eastern front more. I mean, all the German tanks could penetrate a Sherman and the terrain in the west was less open.

I would of thougt that the better armoured Soviet tanks would of required the attention of the 88mm and that the open stepps of the east would of allowed the Jagd to engage at long range.

Regards
David

Ron Klages · Post by **Ron Klages** » 28 Jul 2005 19:18

David,

In my opinion there were possibly two reasons for most going to the western front rather than the eastern front.

1. Three companies were responsible for Jagdpanther production.
-----MIAG was located in Braunschweig and built 270 [164 fron Nov 44 and on]
-----MNH was in Hannover and built 112 [ all from Nov 44 and on]
-----MBA was in Potsdam and built 37 [all from Dec 44 and on]
Braunschweig and Hannover are located in the west of Germany and are quite close to one another. Potsdam is on the outskirts of Berlin in the east of Germany

2. transportation to the east was nearly impossible in late 44 and 45 when most of the Jagdpanthers were being delivered and as noted above for II./PR 130 it was easy for western units to pick up the vehicles and head to the front right from the factories. To wait and load them on railcars, which were extremely hard to find, was not a choice. In many instances a nearby unit would just commandeer the vehicles.

Also at this point in the fighting the steppes and plains of southern Russia and the Ukraine were far behind the front lines and the fighting in the east was more in European terrain, Poland, etc., than the eastern wide open spaces.

These are my thoughts on the subject.

best regards,

Ron Klages

Jan-Hendrik · Post by **Jan-Hendrik** » 28 Jul 2005 19:19

Hi Ron ,

I am not 100% sure for now , but it looks strongly that the main part was forced to work .

Jan-Hendrik

Ron Klages · Post by **Ron Klages** » 28 Jul 2005 19:22

Hi Jan-Hendrick,

It is an interesting possibility and given the hectic situation for MIAG and MNH, so near the front, there was probably a greater urgency to just get the vehicles into battle and quality control was a lesser concern.

Ron Klages

Jan-Hendrik · Post by **Jan-Hendrik** » 28 Jul 2005 19:26

Well , Braunschweig is not really far away from me and Mr.Ritgen lives even nearer ...

Looks like putting my nose deeper into those aspects

Jan-Hendrik

Ron Klages · Post by **Ron Klages** » 28 Jul 2005 19:29

Great,

Keep me informed.

Ron

Franzl Rider · Post by **Franzl Rider** » 28 Jul 2005 21:10

interesting reading.

Here from http://www.aviapress.com.
8)

Panzerkopf · Post by **Panzerkopf** » 29 Jul 2005 13:32

It seems to me that the Germans did another big tactical blunder by allocating the majority of the Jagdpanthers in the west insetad of the east. Even on east european soil (Poland, the Baltic states, east Germany and Prussia) the fields of fire were far broader than in the hedgerow country of Normandy and France. The french countryside required turreted vehicles, to be able to mount effective ambushes in closed confined spaces. On the other hand the broader vistas in eastern europe were more suitable hunting ground for a Jagdpather, offering many opportunities to engage at ranges in excess of 1 km. The corrections needed to be made at such distances by turning the whole vehicle would be minimal and the Jagdpanther's extremely low profile would make it virtually undetectable by the soviet inferior optics. A few well placed Jagdpanthers at Seelow (protected from flanking attacks by infantry) could have held the russian tanks on the other side of Oder for much longer. Especially if they were well camouflaged against air attacks. I would love to hear your opinions on this, even though it seems to be a bit off topic.

Drakhon of the Temple
Non nobis domine non nobis, sed nomini tuo da gloriam

richardrli · Post by **richardrli** » 30 Jul 2005 17:40

You're kidding yourself if you think a few Jagdpanthers could hold the Soviets for long at Seelowe.

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Jagd Panther Actions

Jagdpanther Allocation

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Jagdpanther