German Artillery ID

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Robert Hurst
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German Artillery ID

Post by Robert Hurst » 17 May 2005 13:41

Hi

Can anyone please help me in identifying the coastal artillery piece in the attached pic. The pic was taken from Germany at War; by Lt Col George Forty.

I look forward to hearing from you all. Thanks in advance.

Regards

Bob
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kstdk
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Post by kstdk » 17 May 2005 13:57

Hello Robert Hurst

It is the "Batterie Lindemann" at Noires-Motte, Sangatte / Calais.

It is 40,6 cm Schiffskanone SKC/34 in Schiessgerüst C/39, and the actual picture shows the "Turm Bruno" in front buildt on an open emplacement type S70/80.

The "Turm Cäsar" in the back is already buildt into casematte type S262. There were 3 guns in the battery, the "Turm Anton" is not visible on the picture.

The picture is taken before july 1942, because at that time both guns were in bunkers. They were operationel on the 9th. of November 1942. Just to add some info: the bunker S262 is 50 mtrs. long, 30 mtrs wide and 17 mtrs high - and concrete used was 17000 m3.

Some info about the gun:

20300 mm long / the tube weight 138660 kg. / total weight of gun 200000 kg. / Manufactured by Friedrich Krupp AG, Essen.
Range with standard load ammunition 42800 mtr / with large load ammunition 56000 mtr / weight of standard shell 1024 kg / shell for large load 600 kg. / standard load of powder 282 kg / large load of powder 312 kg. / Crew 68 men.

Source: Les Batteries Cotieres en France Vol I ( ISBN 2-9516102-8-9 ) and Vol II ( ISBN 2-915767-00-9 )
La Batterie Lindemann - ( ISBN 2-9516102-5-4 ) All written by Alain Chazette.

Regards
Kurt
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Gothard
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Post by Gothard » 23 May 2005 05:33

Be careful - thats a myth.

Theres a lot of controversy involved in that particular gun.
the 40.6cm "Adolf" Gun gets a lot of reference but only 1 prototype was ever built. If thats the one I would be very surprised - since this weapon is in a battery of 4 guns I would assume it is its a 38cm "Siegfried" Kanone ( E ) *Eisenbahnlaftte It's a modified 38cm SK C/34 Naval gun.
Image: http://designworx.org/Gun.gif
It was designed by Krupp in 1938 as a railway gun. Total of 8 guns were built - 4 sent to norway where 1 remains intact - I'll find a reference photo.
The others were set up as coastal artillery on the Hel Pennisula in Poland covering Danzig. In early 1942 they were sent to France and emplaced in armored turrets.

Interesting thing about the gun is that it had to be loaded and the Breech closed to be elevated or depressed ( from the railway gun design ) The mount had no lateral traverse and this necessitated the turret as the gun required a turntable.

Calibre: 380 mm / 14.96 inches
Length of gun: 19630 mm = 772.83 inches = 64.40 feet
Length of bore: 18405 mm = 724.61 inches = 60.38 feet
Rifling: 90 grooves, right hand increasing twist 1/36 to 1/30
Breech mechanism: Horizontal sliding block, percussion fired
Traverse : NONE
Elevation: 0 to 45 degrees 44 feet ( sorry I dont have the degree symbols use the standardard lat an lang symbols. ) When breech closed.
Weight in action 294000 kg = 648270 lb. 289.41 tons ( as rail gun with rail mount )
Length over buffers: 31320 mm = 1233.10 in. = 102.67 feet


Performance

Propellant :
Base load was 2 parts, 3rd part for normal and 4th part for heavy charge.

Base Charge: also used for test firing

Part 1. Hauptkartusche 110kg ( 242.55 lb ) R P C / 38
Part 2. Vorkartusche 101kg ( 222.71 lb ) R P C / 38

Small Charge ( normal charge )

Part 3. Hauptkart "Siegfried Ladung" 133kg ( 293.27lb.) Gudol R P

Large Charge ( heavy charge )

Part 4. Vorkart "Siegfried Ladung" 123kg ( 271.22lb ) Gudol R P

Primer: C / 12 nA percussion primer
Identifying marks: Gun was stamped 38cm - 34





Longe range projectile of 495 Kg ( 1091.48 lb.)

Small charge: 920 mps or 3019 fps range 40000m = 43744 = 24.85 miles
Large charge: 1050 mps = 3445 fps = range 55700m = 60914 yds 34.61 miles

Normal projectile of 800kg ( 1764 lb. )

Large Charge only 820 mps or 2690 fps max range 42000m = 45931 yd = 26.10 mile


Ammunition : Seperate loading cased charges.

Normal

38cm Spgr L /4.6 m KZ m Hb - this was a fuzed KZ C/ 27 shell weighing 800Kg with a noze fuze and ballistic cap.

Armor Piercing

38cm Spgr L /4.5 m bd Z m Hb - this was a fuzed Bd Z C /38 shell It was a naval semi armour piercing shell and was supplied with both penetrating and ballistic caps. ( in the railway role it was used against concrete )

Longe range

38cm Spgr L /4.5 m KZ u Bd Z m Hb ( Siegfried Granate ) A fuzed Hbgr Z 40 K ( or Dopp Z 45 K ) and Bd Z 40 K.
This was a lightweight shell designed by the army it had a noze fuze under a ballistic cap and also had a base fuze if needed. It had a bursting charge of 69kg ( 152.14 lb ) of TNT

Rocket Assisted ( developing 1943 - never used )

38 cm R Gr L / 4.6 570kg ( 1265.85 lb ) range 67.80km ( 42.13 miles )
muzzle velocity 980mps ( 3215 fps )
Propellant - Solid rocket 45kg ( 99.23b )


reference is Ian V. Hogg's German Artillery of World War Two
Greenhill Books, London 1975
ISBN 1-85367-480-X

According to Nafzigers German OOB Panzers and Artillery in WW2
the Siegfrieds were arranged in batteries of 2 guns with 58 NCO's and 169 men as rail guns. one was possibly the 698th rail battery.

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Post by Gothard » 23 May 2005 06:10

hmmm... the 4 Siegfrieds in France were emplaced in the Batterie Todt. so thats not my gun.
I would have to say that its a 24cm gun "Theodor Bruno" http://designworx.org/Ted.jpg though and definetely not the adolf. the Bruno has the much shorter barrel you see in the photo. theres a lot of confusion with 24 cm guns, theres theodors and brunos and long bruno and short bruno and new bruno etc... i chose theodor bruno because judging by the photo theres not much more than 20 foot of barrel showing and the theodor bruno had a 27.56 foot barrel... the 40.6 cm had a 60.66 foot barrel and judging by the photo thats pretty impossible. I think the name of the emplacement " Turm Bruno" is also a dead giveaway =).. If youre interested i can give the tech info on that weapon

http://www.doverpages.co.uk/big_guns.htm
http://redtears.free.fr/les%20batteries%20Todtang.html
http://user.mc.net/~hawk/biggun.htm
http://palpatine.chez.tiscali.fr/Page13/page13.htm
http://www.railwaygun.co.uk/

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Post by Gothard » 23 May 2005 08:23

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_16-52_skc34.htm


heres an interesting article on the 40.6cm It carries a combination of the myth of the 40.6cm guns and the reality of the 38cm guns at Batterie Todt.
The Lindemann batterie of course was only 28cm

German
40.6 cm/52 (16") SK C/34
42 cm/48 (16.5") SK C/40
Updated 22 April 2004

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These guns were intended for the "H" class battleships which were laid down in 1939 but never completed. This rifle was a good design but could be said to have had an excessively high muzzle velocity, hence giving it minimal deck penetration even at long ranges.
There were three versions of this weapon; the original prototype for proof and experimental testing; the naval version for the "H" battleships; and the coast artillery version, also known as Adolph. The coast artillery version had a similar construction to the naval version but with a larger chamber. At least some, perhaps all, naval guns were converted over to the coastal artillery version. An interesting feature of the coast artillery version was that, although employed in single BSG mountings, the guns were still produced in left and right versions, showing their naval heritage.

A total of ten of the 40.6 cm (16") guns were actually produced. Seven of these guns were employed as coastal artillery in Norway to protect Narvik, with three at "Battery Dietl" and four at Trondenese near Harstad. At the end of the war, the 4 Trondenes guns were taken over by the Norwegian Army along with 1,227 shells. A German gun crew trained the Norwegians in their use, and the guns were actively used for about a decade. The battery was last fired in 1957 and taken out of commission in 1961. They then sat idle and were placed on sale for scrapping in 1968. The three guns at Battery Dietl were scrapped, but the four at Tronenese remain and one of them is open as a museum at Trondenes Fort.

Two of the other three guns were initially used in Poland and later at Hela to protect Danzig. All three guns were eventually used as Battery Lindemann near Sangatte in France where they fired at Dover.


The 24cm gun is here - this is an L/40 gun - Bruno was based on the L/35 so its not the same gun but close.


http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_945-40_skc94.htm

German
24 cm/40 (9.4") SK L/40
---
Austria-Hungary
24 cm/40 (9.4") Krupp C/94
Updated 05 December 2004

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Used on Pre-dreadnoughts and "First Rate Cruisers" of the 1890s. During World War II some of these guns were used in coastal batteries, the best known being Battery Hamburg, originally at Nordeney and later at Cherbourg.
This gun or a very similar one was also used on Austria-Hungary coast defense ships.

Actual bore diameter was 23.8 cm (9.37").


Aft turret on Austria-Hungary Coast Defense Ship Budapest
The "crack" in the gun barrel is actually a flaw in the picture


Dud German 24 cm (9.4") shell that hit USS Texas BB-35 during the bombardment of Battery Hamburg, east of Cherbourg, France, on 25 June 1944. Projectile appears to be a 24 cm Spr.gr. L/4,1 Bdz (HE with base fuze).
The USN officers are Rear Admiral Carleton F. Bryant (left) and Captain Charles A. Baker, CO, USS Texas
U.S. Naval Historical Center Photograph 80-G-46961
Last edited by Gothard on 23 May 2005 08:39, edited 1 time in total.

Gothard
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Post by Gothard » 23 May 2005 08:33

German
38 cm/52 (14.96") SK C/34
Updated 24 September 2004

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Used on the famous Bismarck class battleships, this weapon is usually - but incorrectly - referred to as being 47 calibers long, but it was actually 51.66 calibers in length. It is also sometimes mistakenly described as being a carry over from the 38 cm L/45 guns used on the World War I-era Bayern class battleships. These guns were actually of a completely new design having little in common with the older guns other than their caliber.
These guns with a modified construction and known as Siegfried were widely used on BSG-mounted coastal artillery. The best-known of these was Battery Todt with four guns located near Haringzelles and which often fired across the Straits of Dover. Four more guns were used at Oxsby (Denmark), four at Hanstead (Denmark) and three at Kristiansund (Norway).

When the Gneisenau was badly damaged in 1943, it was planned to use her three newly-constructed 38 cm twin-turrets, plus an additional one originally intended for the Soviet Union, as coastal artillery. These were to be installed at Cap de la Hague and Paimpol in France, but this plan was never implemented. Work on putting two of these turrets at Oxsby in Denmark was well advanced but incomplete by the end of the war.

Constructed of loose liner, A tube with four rings shrunk over it for about two-thirds of the length from the breech, a jacket shrunk over about two-thirds of the ring layer and a breech end-piece, breech block supporting piece and a horizontal sliding breech block.

These are the Siegfrieds once again theres a lot of confusion as regards numbers and placement

Jan-Hendrik
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Post by Jan-Hendrik » 23 May 2005 13:15

Well my , info says that 3 40,6er guns were first enplaced at Hela as "Batterie Schleswig-Holstein" !

Image

But they were transfered in late 1941 to france , to form "Batterie Lindemann" .


More pics here :

http://panzer-archiv.marcof.de/forum/vi ... c&start=15

Jan-Hendrik

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Post by Gothard » 23 May 2005 18:57

as for the 40.6cm "Adolf" you are absulutely correct. I had assumed it was the rail gun and not the ship guns - which were available and were emplaced at batterie Lindemann. My mistake. For some reason i was fixated on the rail gun and should been a bit more openminded.

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Post by jopaerya » 23 May 2005 19:36

Hello Gothard

The color picture from Robert Hurst is from
M.S.B. Lindemann as Kurt said and not a other gun
pleace look at the camouflage and the shape of the
gunhouse and barrel on the fotos from the book
"Atlantikwall " from Alain Chazette .
It is a 40.6 cm SK C/34 gun , before it was called
M.S.B. Lindemann the name was M.S.B. Grossdeutschland
but after the death of Kapitän zur See Ernst Lindemann
commander of the Bismarck on 27 May 1941 the name
was changed.

Regards Jos
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Post by Gothard » 23 May 2005 21:30

ya.. it sucks. A guy as good looking as me shouldn't ever be wrong ..... But here ya have it. It was really a fun topic for me despite making an idiot out of myself. =)

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kstdk
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Post by kstdk » 23 May 2005 21:35

Hello all

I was beginning to wonder about the talk of railway guns ???

But - i stopped wondering - as i was convinced that it was 40,6 guns at Batterie Lindemann.

Thanks for the support on that, now i am more calm - again !!! ;o)

But - quite interesting informations on railway guns, though.

And, about mistakes:

If you dont do anything, you dont make mistakes - we make mistakes !!!

Regards
Kurt
kstdk.

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schwarzermai
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Re: German Artillery ID

Post by schwarzermai » 20 Jun 2014 15:10

from Brieftagebuch Stoart bei Ob.West 1942

Image

Uwe
viewtopic.php?f=70&t=112552&start=195#p2028003

My Bookproject: "Organisationsgeschichte der deutschen Heeresartillerie im II. Weltkrieg"

http://balsi.de/Heeresartillerie/

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