Katyn Massacre Documents

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David Thompson
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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by David Thompson » 21 Apr 2010 19:21

Thanks again, Chinaski1917.

Sergey
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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by Sergey » 28 Apr 2010 10:01

http://www.echo.msk.ru/blog/echomsk/675404-echo/

Russia's pres.Medvedev orders to put main Katyn Massacre Documents on a public domain. Radio Echo of Moscow on its site shows the copies of the documents.

Beria's report to Stalin about 'special order' to review cases of Polish POWs.
http://echo.msk.ru/doc/675414-echo.html

Extracts from Politburo protocols.
http://echo.msk.ru/doc/675405-echo.html
http://echo.msk.ru/doc/675406-echo.html
http://echo.msk.ru/doc/675409-echo.html

A report by KGB head Shelepin to Khrushchev about destruction of documents related to execution of 21857 Poles.
http://echo.msk.ru/doc/675411-echo.html

A document that confirms that Soviet leaders Chernenko and Adropov saw the secret documents.
http://echo.msk.ru/doc/675412-echo.html

A descriprion of secret files
http://echo.msk.ru/doc/675413-echo.html

Kajtmaz
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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by Kajtmaz » 28 Apr 2010 12:53

Thanks, Sergey.

Q: Did "Russia's pres.Medvedev order to put main Katyn Massacre Documents on a public domain" in blog EchoMSK?
Or is archive-public domain-source?
Sergey wrote: Russia's pres.Medvedev orders to put main Katyn Massacre Documents on a public domain. Radio Echo of Moscow on its site shows the copies of the documents.

Chinaski1917
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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by Chinaski1917 » 28 Apr 2010 12:56

So what's new here ? I think these documents have been known for quite some time.

Sergey please inform us.

Sergey
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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by Sergey » 28 Apr 2010 13:21

Yes the content of the documents was known. But now (not only the text) but exact copies (with handwritten remarks) are exposed on a site of state Archive.

David Thompson
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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by David Thompson » 28 Apr 2010 13:24

Chinaski1917 -- You wrote:
So what's new here ? I think these documents have been known for quite some time.

Sergey please inform us.
AHF has a policy of encouraging links to historical documents which may be convenient and of interest to our readers. Unless the links have been repeatedly posted here to the point of tedium, we don't have a requirement that they possess independent novelty.

Chinaski1917
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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by Chinaski1917 » 28 Apr 2010 13:49

Yes the content of the documents was known. But now (not only the text) but exact copies (with handwritten remarks) are exposed on a site of state Archive.
So this is an indirect or direct claim by Russian state officials say that they are true and not forged ?

Kajtmaz
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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by Kajtmaz » 28 Apr 2010 17:27

Chinaski1917 wrote:So this is an indirect or direct claim by Russian state officials say that they are true and not forged ?
Sergey wrote:are exposed on a site of state Archive.
site of State Archive RF: http://www.garf.ru/arhiv.htm

There is no.
Help, please.

David Thompson
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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by David Thompson » 28 Apr 2010 18:43

Kajtmaz -- You wrote, of Sergey's links to Russian archival sources (at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9#p1459879 ):
site of State Archive RF: http://www.garf.ru/arhiv.htm

There is no.
Help, please.
You can help yourself, by reading with greater care. The documents reproduced on the Echo site are credited to RGASPI (РГАСПИ), in captions right under each image:

Russian State Archive of Socio-Political History (RGASPI) (Russian: Российский государственный архив социально-политической истории (РГАСПИ))
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_St ... al_History
1. Questions

In the research sections of the forum, we ask the posters to be reasonably well-prepared, and not ask others for information which they could easily get for themselves. The purpose of these sections of the forum is to provide a place where historical matters can be intelligently discussed. It is not a research service.
H&WC Section Rules
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=53962

Kajtmaz
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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by Kajtmaz » 28 Apr 2010 19:07

David Thompson wrote:You can help yourself, by reading with greater care. The documents reproduced on the Echo site are credited to RGASPI (РГАСПИ), in captions right under each image:

Russian State Archive of Socio-Political History (RGASPI) (Russian: Российский государственный архив социально-политической истории (РГАСПИ)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_St ... al_History
Thanks David Thompson, you are very kind.

http://www.rgaspi.ru/index.htm

http://www.rgaspi.ru/ann_fonds.htm

There is no also, but thanks so much.
Waleed Y. Majeed wrote:A quick google search on the subject reveals the news is out and world wide by now :D
The official link is:
http://rusarchives.ru/publication/katyn/spisok.shtml
waleed
Link dont work and that "rusarchives" is not Russian State Archive of Socio-Political History (RGASPI) (Russian: Российский государственный архив социально-политической истории (РГАСПИ).
That "rusarchives" is not Archive, thats Russian: "информация о деятельности Федерального архивного агентства".

But thanks Waleed Y. Majeed, I am waiting site in work
Last edited by Kajtmaz on 28 Apr 2010 19:54, edited 1 time in total.

David Thompson
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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by David Thompson » 28 Apr 2010 19:50

Kajtmaz -- I just came back from the http://rusarchives.ru/publication/katyn/spisok.shtml site, which finally showed up on my computer after a very very slow load. Since it just appeared, it may be getting heavy traffic from internet users.

You also wrote:
Link dont work and that "rusarchives" is not Russian State Archive of Socio-Political History (RGASPI) (Russian: Российский государственный архив социально-политической истории (РГАСПИ).
That "rusarchives" is not Archive, thats Russian: "информация о деятельности Федерального архивного агентства".
As for the rusarchives site, here's what I got on a Google search, per the US Library of Congress:

Архивы России (http://www.rusarchives.ru)
Official site of the federal Russian State Archives Administration. In Russian.
http://www.loc.gov/rr/international/eur ... aries.html

Numerous other sources gave the same information. "информация о деятельности Федерального архивного агентства" translates into English as "information about the activity of the federal archive agency" -- the kind of "About us" statement one would expect to find on an official site with multiple pages.

As I understand it, the GARF site you gave earlier:
site of State Archive RF: http://www.garf.ru/arhiv.htm
is just one of several branches of the federal Russian State Archives Administration (sometimes called the Rosarkhiv):
The State Archive of the Russian Federation (GARF) (Russian: Государственный архив Российской Федерации (ГАРФ)) is a large Russian state archive managed by Rosarkhiv (The Federal Archival Agency of Russia), which preserves official documents of the Russian Federation as well as many other sources.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Arch ... Federation

See also:
Russian State Archive of Socio-Political History (RGASPI) (Russian: Российский государственный архив социально-политической истории (РГАСПИ)), formerly the Marx-Lenin Institute[1] is a large Russian state archive based in Moscow, which holds pre-1952 archives of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. It is managed by Rosarkhiv.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_St ... al_History
Russian State Archive of Contemporary History (RGANI) (Russian: Российский государственный архив новейшей итории (РГАНИ)) is a large Russian state archive managed by Rosarkhiv, which preserves post-1952 documents of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_St ... ry_History

Rosarkhiv also has several other branches, not to be confused with:
The Archive of the President of the Russian Federation (Russian: Архив Президента Российской Федерации) is a Russian state archive established in 1991 and managed by the Presidential Administration of Russia. It remains classified almost entirely and preserves records of the President of Russia and Presidential Administration of Russia, as well as documents of the highest organs of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archive_of ... Federation

pavel michalek
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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by pavel michalek » 28 Apr 2010 20:55

I´ve seen NKVD executioners using German pistols in Katyn (2007) film by Andrzej Wajda. Is this also based on true?

David Thompson
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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by David Thompson » 28 Apr 2010 21:25

pavel michalek -- You asked:
I´ve seen NKVD executioners using German pistols in Katyn (2007) film by Andrzej Wajda. Is this also based on true?
That's a good question. Judging from empty cartridge casings, the ammunition was of German manufacture, but was widely used in other 7.65mm pistols:
Henry Cassidy told this committee that the correspondents taken to Katyn by the Russians pointed out this inconsistency, and he said further:

"Thereupon, the text of the Soviet Atrocities Commission report, which was to be released simultaneously with our dispatches, was held up for a couple of days, I suppose to be rewritten, and our dispatches were released when that report was finally read, and it was then that we got our copy into the telegraph office. (See p. 214, part II, of the published hearings.)

In all the allegations in the Soviet Commission's report, not once do they make mention of the type of ammunition used. The type of ammunition, was manufactured in Germany by Genschow & Co. But testimony heard before this committee clearly proved that the German-made ammunition had been sent to Russia and the Baltic states for many years before World War II. Mr. Genschow, president of the Gustav Genschow & Co., as a witness before the committee in Frankfurt, testified as follows:
"Mr. Genschow.' * * 'The cartridges of the shells of this pistol ammunition carried, since the year 1933-34, the word "Geco" on the bottom of the shell, and underneath the "Geco" was '7.65.'

"Question. Can 7.65 ammunition of the type manufactured by this firm be used in various kinds and makes of pistols?

"Mr. Genschow. 'Yes, it could; because it was a standard type cartridge which could be used in very many different makes of pistols.'

"Question. Was it used internationally by various nations, police, or armed forces, in pistols?

"Mr. Genschow. 'Yes certainly.'

"Question. Did this firm ever export pistol ammunition of the caliber 7.65 to Eastern Europe?

"Mr. Genschow. 'Yes; that is the case."
(See part V of the published hearings.) From the foregoing testimony it is evident that both Russia and Germany had access to this type of ammunition.
1952 US Congressional Select Committee report "The Katyn Forest Massacre" at p. 47
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 17#p512517

Chinaski1917
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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by Chinaski1917 » 28 Apr 2010 21:30

Walther guns where quite popular police-guns all over EUrope at the time .

Even Yezhov, former leader of the NKVD had one :
2. During the search, I took possession of a Walther pistol, No. 623573, caliber 6.35, and a Browning, caliber 6.35 No. 104799, which were hidden in different places behind books in the book cabinet. In the office desk, I discovered a Walther pistol, caliber 7.65, No. 777615, loaded, with a broken firing pin.
http://skoblin.blogspot.com/search?q=YEzhov

Kajtmaz
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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by Kajtmaz » 29 Apr 2010 00:10

David Thompson wrote: ...Архивы России (http://www.rusarchives.ru)
Official site of the federal Russian State Archives Administration. In Russian.
http://www.loc.gov/rr/international/eur ... aries.html

Numerous other sources gave the same information. "информация о деятельности Федерального архивного агентства" translates into English as "information about the activity of the federal archive agency" -- the kind of "About us" statement one would expect to find on an official site with multiple pages.
you're quite right

David Thompson wrote:As I understand it, the GARF site you gave earlier:
site of State Archive RF: http://www.garf.ru/arhiv.htm
is just one of several branches of the federal Russian State Archives Administration (sometimes called the Rosarkhiv):
The State Archive of the Russian Federation (GARF) (Russian: Государственный архив Российской Федерации (ГАРФ)) is a large Russian state archive managed by Rosarkhiv (The Federal Archival Agency of Russia), which preserves official documents of the Russian Federation as well as many other sources.
...
logical

I saw primary source Архивы современной России = Archives of modern Russia


and found such list:

Государственный архив Российской Федерации = State Archive of the Russian Federation http://www.garf.ru

Главархив Москвы = Main arhiv of Moscow mosarchiv.mos.ru

Российский Государственный архив социально-политической истории (РГАСПИ) = Russian State Archive of Socio-Political History (RGASPI) http://www.rgaspi.ru

etc.


when Sergey wrote: „on a site of state Archive” – I looking for primary source State Archive of the Russian Federation --> Official site --> www. garf.ru

when you, David Thompson, wrote “Russian State Archive of Socio-Political History (RGASPI), I looking for primary source and found site and link www. rgaspi.ru

so I made a blunder.

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