German Fully Tracked Vehicles on the Western Front

Discussions on the vehicles used by the Axis forces. Hosted by Christian Ankerstjerne
Ron Klages
In memoriam
Posts: 299
Joined: 20 Oct 2002 21:34
Location: Lynnwood, Washington

German Fully Tracked Vehicles on the Western Front

Post by Ron Klages » 07 Jun 2005 23:21

To all interested,

I have been in the process of attempting to determine which German fully tracked vehicles by type and the quantity that fought in the west from 6 June 1944 through to 8 May 1945. I also wanted to display this data by vehicle type, quantity by month and the assigned unit. I have now accomplished that activity and I wish to share this information with all those individuals that have an interest. I also wish to generate an ongoing narrative to continue to review, add and correct and make any adjustments that would be necessary to develop the most accurate accounting possible of such a data base. This listing was never intended to include the RSO type vehicles.

The kind owners and moderators of this forum have agreed to post the information and to establish a linked “Sticky” for each input that I make. I will input my data base in the following sections.

You will note that each section is linked to the data base as posted here on the forum.

***************************************************************

Section I.- -Assault Guns [2,120 units]: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=79292
StuG III=1,647 units
StuG IV=234 units
StuH 42=239 units

Section II.- -Self-propelled Artillery [439 units]: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=79295
Wespe=135 units
Hummel=118 units
Grille=106 units
Sturmpanzer IV=72 units
Sturmmörser Tiger=8 units

Section III.- -Anti-Tank Vehicles [1,733 units]: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=79355
Jagdpanzer 38(t) [Hetzer]=784 units
Jagdpanzer IV=357 units
Jagdpanther=320 units
Marder III [7.5cm Pak]=148 units
Jagdtiger=69 units
Nashorn=23 units
Marder II [7.62cm Pak]=21 units
Marder II [7.5cm Pak]=8 units
Marder III 7.62cm Pak]=3 units

Section IV- - Captured Equipment [285 units]: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=79411
Somua=52 units
Hotchkiss=45 units
Renault 35R=28 units
10.5cm FH auf Hotchkiss=24 units
10.5cm FH auf Lorraine=24 units
Char B2=24 units
7.5cm Pak auf Hotchkiss=23 units
15cm FH auf Lorraine=16 units
15cm IG auf Lorraine=12 units
Renault B2=9 units
7.5cm Pak auf Lorraine (Marder I)=8 units
4.7cm Pak auf R35=6 units
Renault F17=5 units
Sherman=9 units


Section V- - Flakpanzers [321 units]: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=79413
Möbelwagen=133 units
Wirbelwind=96 units
Flakpanzer 38(t)=92 units

Section VI.- - Recovery vehicles [204 units]: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=79420
Bergepanther=103 units
Bergepanzer III=59 units
Bergepanzer 38(t)=39 units
Bergepanzer IV=3 units

Section VII.- - Panzers [4,434 units]: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=79424
Panther=1,837 units
Panzer IV.=1,666 units
Panzer IV/70(V)=331 units
Tiger II=204 units
Tiger I=200 units
Panzer IV/70(A)=93 units
Panzer III.=75 units
Panzer II=27 units
Tiger (P)=1 unit

Section VIII.- -All other [351 units]: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=79425
Demolition vehicle BIV=307 units
Beobspanzer IV.=25 units
Beobspanzer III.=19 units

Grand total all types=9,887 units

Distribution by month is:
1944
June=1,817
July=1,081
August=866
September=1,248
October=651
November=999
December=1,646

1945
January=632
February=204
March=316
April=415
May=12

Jagdpanzer 38 distribution list: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=74614

The format will be self-explanatory. The month I post vehicle quantities is the month that the unit was in combat with the vehicle rather than the shipping or receipt date by the unit. This was done since many units were refitting in Germany or other locations before entering combat on the western front.

I also wish to emphasize that this is my list and it may not be complete or accurate. That is the reason I am entering the data base on the forum to enable corrections, etc. to be made by the audience out there. I also look for additions and or corrections to any unit information shown.

Since the sections can be lengthy it will probably take several days to input all of them.

So here is to happy gathering of data to develop a complete listing of all fully tracked German vehicles that operated on the western front.

Best regards to all,

Ron Klages
Last edited by Ron Klages on 27 Jun 2005 19:19, edited 13 times in total.

User avatar
Revellations
Member
Posts: 327
Joined: 13 Jun 2004 13:25
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Post by Revellations » 08 Jun 2005 03:11

Well Done Ron! Your information will be so valuable to the forum members as it has been to my own particular research in the past. I congratulate you on your efforts and look forward to further posts.

Kind regards

Revellations

RichTO90
Member
Posts: 4238
Joined: 22 Dec 2003 18:03

Post by RichTO90 » 08 Jun 2005 14:56

Great Ron, something else for me to file and digest!

jmehner
Member
Posts: 90
Joined: 27 Dec 2004 10:32
Location: Central Germany

Post by jmehner » 08 Jun 2005 17:45

Ron,

great job, thank you very much indeed, it's highly appreciated.

Just one Q on the Grilles, I presume the number includes both Ausf. H and M, is there any way to tell which unit received what particular variant?

Cheers,

JM

Ron Klages
In memoriam
Posts: 299
Joined: 20 Oct 2002 21:34
Location: Lynnwood, Washington

Post by Ron Klages » 09 Jun 2005 01:43

Guys,

Thank you for the positive remarks.

Rich, I look forward to any additions, corrections, etc. that you might have. As to adding to the data base--we both love to do that--right!

JM- I made little effort to determine a model of a particular vehicle since this data is not present in the reports out of the Wehrmacht. The best way to do that is by time line.

best regards,

Ron Klages

User avatar
AikinutNY
Member
Posts: 210
Joined: 12 Dec 2004 19:05
Location: Three Mile Bay, New York, USA

Tiger(P) Correction

Post by AikinutNY » 14 Jun 2005 15:37

The one Tiger(P) or a VK4501 was assigned to theHeadquarters Company, 653rd Panzerjager Abteilung and served on the Eastern front as a command vehicle. The vehicle was lost (cause unknown) after a few months. Alot of the unit's Ferdinand/Elefants were destroyed by the crew due to mechanical problems or stuck in the mud so they would not be captured, since this was basically the same chassis could have been the same reason.

joepopo1
Member
Posts: 2
Joined: 20 Jun 2005 22:45
Location: Darien, Illinois

Toldi M38 (or sometimes I see it listed as 38M)

Post by joepopo1 » 21 Jun 2005 22:03

Hello:

I am writing from Indian Prairie Library in Darien, IL (near Chicago). We have a patron who is trying to find out if the Toldi M38 tank was used in Panzer units on the Western front after 1944. Based on one of your postings, it looks like you might know this or know who does. The Toldi M38 was made in Hungary and based on the Swedish L60. Do you know of any source that documents this tank being used on the Western front after 1944?

We would appreciate any assistance that you can provide. If you need to talk to a librarian directly, please call 630-887-8760, ext. 240.

Thank you.

Sincerely,

Joseph A. Popowitch
Reference Librarian

joepopo1
Member
Posts: 2
Joined: 20 Jun 2005 22:45
Location: Darien, Illinois

Toldi M38

Post by joepopo1 » 28 Jul 2005 21:05

Hello Again:

I am writing from Indian Prairie Library in Darien, IL (near Chicago). We had posted a question and received a very detailed answer regarding the Toldi M38 tank. Our patron has been trying to find out if the Toldi M38 tank was used in Panzer units on the Western front after 1944, and from the posted response, it seemed very improbable that the tank was there.

Since we received that response, our patron has continued doing research. He says that they have identified, as he calls it, "a light reconnaissance tank unit," the 25th Waffen SS. This tank unit clashed with the 70th Tank Battalian near Nuremburg. The 25th was, he thinks, chased out of France sometime during 1944. Because it was a Hungarian unit and specifically a "light reconnaissance tank unit," he feels that if any Toldi M38 tanks were still left, that this unit may have been using them. Unfortunately, they have nothing that documents the unit as having had any Toldis. I realize you have already looked into this matter, but based on the new information we have provided, if you think you can discover any additional information, it would be greatly appreciated.

Our patron, Bill, has said that you can call him if you want to discuss the matter. His phone number is 630-852-0353.

We would appreciate any assistance that you can provide. If you need to talk to a librarian directly, please call 630-887-8760, ext. 240.

Thank you.

Sincerely,

Joseph A. Popowitch
Reference Librarian

User avatar
USMC03
Member
Posts: 117
Joined: 18 Mar 2006 03:13
Location: Michigan, USA

Post by USMC03 » 29 Apr 2006 20:31

Ron,

Ill say it as well...great post...Ive been looking for something like this for my model building...Thanks...Semper Fi, Leigh

MjrMayhem
Member
Posts: 26
Joined: 25 Apr 2006 04:00
Location: G-ville, Ont, Canada

The Duck?

Post by MjrMayhem » 30 Apr 2006 00:41

Panzer IV/70(V) and (A), do you mean Jagdpanzer IV/70 (V) and (A)? Not to be picky or anything, i just havent seen a Panzer IV with a L/70 75mm. Would that work anyways?
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Ron Klages
In memoriam
Posts: 299
Joined: 20 Oct 2002 21:34
Location: Lynnwood, Washington

The Answer

Post by Ron Klages » 02 May 2006 20:13

MjrMayhem,

There never was officially a vehicle named Jagdpanzer IV/70 (V) and (A). The official names were Panzer IV/70(V) and (A).

To differentiate this jagdpanzer from the Jagdpanzer IV with the 7.5cm Pak 39 L48 the troops began calling them Panzer IV/70 with the (V) for Vomag and the (A) for Alkett. In November 1944 the official title adopted by the Waffenamt was the latter.

So a direct answer to you question is yes but to call them Jagdpanzer IV/70 (V) and (A) is incorrect.

This is the same type of problem when calling a Jagdpanzer 38 a "Hetzer". That is an erroe since it was never called a "Hetzer" either officially or un-officially.

Best regards,

Ron Klages

MjrMayhem
Member
Posts: 26
Joined: 25 Apr 2006 04:00
Location: G-ville, Ont, Canada

Post by MjrMayhem » 02 May 2006 22:18

Thank you, Ron. Learn something new everyday.

Ron Klages
In memoriam
Posts: 299
Joined: 20 Oct 2002 21:34
Location: Lynnwood, Washington

Update to Panther listing

Post by Ron Klages » 02 Aug 2006 07:33

To all,

In Section VII on Panzers in the west in August 1944 I show 24 Panthers allocated to OB West.

I now have the specfic units that received these Panthers. They are as follows:

August 1944
8 Panthers for I./SS Panzer Regimnet 12 with the 12. SS Panzer Division
8 Panthers for I./ SS Panzer Regiment 9 with the 9. SS Panzer Division
8 Panthers for I./ Panzer Regiment 6 with Panzer Lehr Division

I am still looking for additionl data but the going is now slow.

Best regards to all,

Ron Klages

spannermann
Member
Posts: 472
Joined: 23 Aug 2006 20:07
Location: UK

vehicle lists

Post by spannermann » 27 Sep 2006 17:42

Hi Ron,
Many thanks for the interesting info, but can you help on a slight tangent, its concerns the Flakpanzer 38(t), is it possible that you could list the units that received them in the east ? and anything that may show them still in use in Czechoslsovakia in 1945.

thanks

Ron Klages
In memoriam
Posts: 299
Joined: 20 Oct 2002 21:34
Location: Lynnwood, Washington

None in the East

Post by Ron Klages » 29 Sep 2006 18:36

Spannermann,

A total of 141 FlakPz. 38(t)s were build and issued in the war.
These are the units that were issued these vehicles.

• Waffenamt = 1

• IN THE WEST
2. PD = 12
21. PD = 12
PD LEHR = 12
1. SSPD = 12 [originally issued to 9. SSPD but transferred to 1. SSPD]
2. SSPD = 12 [originally issued to 10. SSPD but transferred to 2. SSPD]
12. SSPD = 12
17. SSPGD = 20 [8 originally issued to 10. SSPD but picked up by the 17.SSPGD]

Therefore 92 were issued to units fighting in the west and by 1 December 1944 only 3 from the 2. PD and 6 with the 17. SSPGD were still available. All other units had lost or replaced there FlakPz. 38(t)s. The 17. SSPGD withdrew from the west into the area just east of Nürnberg in April 1945 but that is the closest any of these units got to Czechoslovakia and I suspect that the likelyhood of any of the FlakPz. 38(t)s still available would have been very slight.

• IN ITALY
26. PD = 12
PD “HG” = 12
29. PGD = 12
90. PGD = 12

Therefore a total of 48 were issued to units fighting in Italy and on 15 March 1945 only 21 were still available, 6 with the 26. PD, 7 with the 29. PGD and 8 with the 90. PGD.
PD “HG” left the fighting in Italy in July 1944 and went to fight in the east. However, when they left they transferred their armored vehicles to other units that remained in Italy. I doubt they had any FlakPz. 38(t)s when the end came in May 1945.

Therefore based on the above information I would say that most likely there were no FlakPz. 38(t)s fighting on the eastern front.

Hope this data helps.

Best regards,

Ron Klages

Sources are:

Panzer Tracts No. 12 by Jentz
Czech. Armored Fighting Vehicles by Kliment
Die Deutschen Divisionen 1939-1945 Band 1-4 by Schmitz, Thies, Wegmann and Zweng

Return to “The Ron Klages Panzer & other vehicles Section”