16 Tiger II for SS 101/501 in Aug.44 Normandy

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H.v.Holdt
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16 Tiger II for SS 101/501 in Aug.44 Normandy

Post by H.v.Holdt » 11 Jun 2005 19:17

From the list of Ron Klages

viewtopic.php?t=79424

Some new Information

AUGUST 1944:
1./s SS Pz.Abt. 101(501) with 16 units
Pz.Kp. 316 (Fkl) with 5 units
3./sPz.Abt. 503(FHH) with 14 units


So the sSSPzAbt.101/501 had not 14 Tiger II, they had 16 Tiger II in August 1944 in the Normandy.

Do someone know how these two extra Tigers were used?
Were they part of the 1.Coy SS 101/501 or was it for staff Coy.?
Are there turret numbers known?

It seems like an interesting new view and I like to learn more about.

Any help welcome


Hartmut

Ron Klages
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sSS 101 Tiger IIs in August 1944

Post by Ron Klages » 13 Jun 2005 01:37

Hartmut,

I have done some searching of the records, books, etc. and I have reduced the number of Tiger IIs with sSSPA 101(501) in August 1944 from 16 to 14.

Here is what I have determined.

From Tigers in Combat II by Wolfgang Schneider on page 261 it shows that the 1. Kompanie received 14 Tiger IIs at Sennelager on 28 July 1944 to 1 August 1944. They entrained on 5 August 1944 and detrained on 18 August 1944 30 km norht east of Paris. On 20 August the 1. Kompanie arrives north west of Paris and on 23 August 1944 4 of their Tiger IIs support a counterattack by Luftwaffenfeldregt. 33 and 36 starting at 0600 hours near GUITRANCOURT.,In the fighting this dat 1 Tiger II is knocked out by the US Tank Destroyer Battalion 749 and another is knocked out by an anti-tank gun near MELIER. This leaves the kompanie with 12 Tiger IIs.

Then on 25 August 1944 they incorporate 2 Tiger IIs with the Porsche Turm from s Pz.Abt. 503 bring their total back to 14 Tiger IIs.

Then on 26 August 1944 in fighting in the MONTGISON-FONTENAT St. PERE area three Tiger IIs are lost. One of the Porschet turm Tiger IIs [from sPA 503] is abandoned 200 metere in front of the town of MEULAN. This Tiger was from the 2nd Platoon. Another Tiger II under the command of UntStFh. Stamm is knocked out by an AT gun and Tiger II [#124"] is attacked by Jabos and near misses cause the Tiger II to tip over and it is abandoned. The 1.Kompanie now has 11 Tiger IIs.

On 28 August 1944 two more Tiger IIs are lost. Total now at 9.

On 29 August 1944 three Tiger IIs are lost. Now have 6 Tiger IIs.

On 30 August 1944 Tiger II [#111] is destroyed by British Shermans on road D981 to GISSORS. Now have 5 Tiger IIs.

On 2 September 1944 Tiger II [#113] runs out of fuel and is abandoned in JEMAPPES that evening. Now have 4 Tiger IIs.

On 4 September two Tiger IIs are lost. Now have two Tiger IIs remaining.

On 5 September 1944 Tiger II [#121] is abandoned on the road near LA CAPELLE due to lack of fuel. The gun is demolished by the crew and demolition charges are set off in the engine compartment.

The single remaining Tiger II is entrained in SIEGBURG and transferred to SS Panzerersatzabteilung in AUGUSTDORF.


So is the saga of the 1. Kompanie of s SS PA 101[501] with their Tiger IIs.


Now I know that s PA 503 and the 3. Kompanie was re-equipped at Mailly Le Camp with 14 Tiger IIs of which 2 had the Henschel and the others had the Henschel turret. This occurred on 31 July 1944. Also the 1. Kompanie of sPA 503 had received 12 Porsche turreted Tiger IIs between 11 and 17 June 1944 while at Ohrdruf and that they took these to Normandy and into battle on 11 Julty 1944. This information comes from Tiger in Combat I by Wolfgang Schneider on pages 164 throuugh 166. When the 3. Kompanie was rte-euipped with the Tiger IIs when they left Mailly Le Camp two of the Tiger IIs broke down and we left behind. These were saved and transported to Germany and after repair were returned to sPA 503 before it went to Hungary in late September 1944.

This would indicate that the 2 Tiger IIs transferred to sSSPA101[501] on 25 August 1944 were not the two left behind at Mailly Le Camp. So were they 2 Tiger IIs from the 1. Kompanies inventory. Schneider does not indicate this in his discussion regarding sPA 503.

If the data is correct then I believe the two Tiger IIs that sSSPA 101[501] received on 25 August 1944 had to have come from the 1./sPA503 inventory rather that the 3./sPA503 inventory.

Now with regards to my data base with the German Vehicles in the west I have removed these two Tiger IIs from 1./sSSPA 101[501] because they had already been countedin the inventory of sPA503 in the data base. I do not included transferred units within the same theater because that would be a multiple counting of the same vehicles in the front.

So for the data base the record has been adjusted to just 14 Tiger IIs for August 1944 and not the 16 as iitially shown.

As to where 1./sSSPA 101 received the 2 Tiger IIs from sPA 503--the 1. Kompanie or the 3. Kompanie is still to be determined.

Hope this clears the data base up.

Best regards,

Ron Klages.

Matthias Radu
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Tiger II (P)

Post by Matthias Radu » 13 Jun 2005 20:43

Ron,

thanx for providing additional information on the number of Tiger II of sSSPA 101 in France. As this is somewhat crucial, would you mind clarifying what exactly is meant by writing:

"Then on 25 August 1944 they incorporate 2 Tiger IIs with the Porsche Turm from s Pz.Abt. 503 bring their total back to 14 Tiger IIs. "

Would that mean these two Tigers were manned from that point on by SS-crew or could it mean that they simply came under command of that unit, but technically still belonged to sPA 503?

Furthermore, were did you get that information, as I wasn't aware of such a distribution up till now! Is there any mention on the (suspected) reason behind such a move ?

Thanx in advance

Matthias

Ron Klages
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Who Knows

Post by Ron Klages » 13 Jun 2005 21:18

Matthais,

Data comes from Tigers in Combat II on the page I noted above.

As to who manned them. I have no idea. I rather suspect that they were taken over by SS 101 crews.

I am as confused on these two Tiger IIs asthe next man.

I plan to do a bit more research.

Best regards,

Ron Klages

Andreas
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Post by Andreas » 13 Jun 2005 21:31

Ron

What happened to the two Tigers of sPzAbt 503 present in Le Plessis Grimoult on 7th August when 5th DCLI and 4/7 KDG attacked and took the village? British sources claim one destroyed by catching fire from a burning ammo truck hit by a 2" mortar, and the other I am not sure what happened to?

Cheers

Andreas

Matthias Radu
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Post by Matthias Radu » 13 Jun 2005 21:40

Thanx Ron, trouble is - I have the German edition of Schneider's book, and there is no mention of that point at all (everything else is more or less as stated in your original posting). Whatever that means!?

Cheers

Matthias

Michael Kenny
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Post by Michael Kenny » 13 Jun 2005 21:42

The 503 History makes no mention of a TII from the 1st kp. making it across the Seine.
Page 244 from the 503 book describes the destruction of 6 TII's before the crews made it to the river. How could SS 501 recieve tanks from 1/503 when the both were on opposite sides of the Seine?
Both 1/501 and 3/503 fought together north of the Seine and if any transfer occurred that is where it could have happened.

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H.v.Holdt
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Post by H.v.Holdt » 14 Jun 2005 18:41

Ron,

thank you very much for that overwiew.

It seems like we have some differences between the german TIC2 and the english TIC2 information on SS101/501. I own the german version too and like Matthias allready state there is no mention about the two Tigers taking over from 503.

Do you think it could be simply an error in the english TIC2 or do you believe in that info? Is there something to back up this information possibly?

Best regards

Hartmut

Andreas
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Post by Andreas » 03 Nov 2005 00:52

Andreas wrote:Ron

What happened to the two Tigers of sPzAbt 503 present in Le Plessis Grimoult on 7th August when 5th DCLI and 4/7 KDG attacked and took the village? British sources claim one destroyed by catching fire from a burning ammo truck hit by a 2" mortar, and the other I am not sure what happened to?

Cheers

Andreas


M. Lodieu has been kind enough to confirm that in his view the KT was indeed knocked out by the burning ammo truck next to it, which in turn had been hit by a 2" mortar round.

I guess this has to count as one of the most effective uses of the 2" mortar during the war, and it gives a whole new meaning to the term 'indirect fire'.

All the best

Andreas

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