Plan Z

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Kriegsmarine except those dealing with the U-Boat forces.
nebelwerferXXX
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Re: Plan Z

Post by nebelwerferXXX » 28 Oct 2010 13:13

nebelwerferXXX wrote:There are Four German 'Z-plan' topics in this forum namely:
1) Plan Z................... 29 March 2002
2) The 'Z' Plan............. 13 March 2004
3) Kriegsmarine Z-Plan... 08 March 2005
4) Z-Plan details.......... 15 February 2007

Let these Four topics stay-put in this forum...Thanks!
My 300th post:
Because the German 'Z-plan' is my favorite topic. Thanks!

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Re: Plan Z

Post by nebelwerferXXX » 01 Nov 2010 11:47

nebelwerferXXX wrote:
nebelwerferXXX wrote:Evolution of the Plan Z:
Plan Z first version: capital ships
Plan Z second version: smaller ships
Plan Z final version: capital ships and smaller ships combined

Recommending Approval: Grand Adm. Erich Raeder
Approved: The Fuhrer Adolf Hitler
Canceled: 1939
Just to give more detail to the above statement is here.

Evolution of the German 'Z-Plan': First preliminary study:

Part I: German 'Z-Plan' capital ships: The core of the 'Z-Plan'
(a) Six battleships of 56,000 tons...............................................336,000 tons...1.443-billion RM
(b) Two battleships (Bismarck and Tirpitz) of 42,000 tons....................84,000 tons...400-million RM
(c) Three pocket-battleships of 31,000 tons, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau...93,000 tons

(d) Three pocket-battleships (Deutschland, Admiral Scheer and Graf Spee)
(e) Two aircraft-carriers (Graf Zeppelin, launched in 1938, plus one other)
______________________________________________________________
Total: 16 ships

Part II: German 'Z-Plan' smaller ships:
(1) Five heavy cruisers (Hipper, Blucher, Prinz Eugen, Seydlitz and Lutzow)
(2) 44 light cruisers (of which 6 were already completed)
(3) 68 destroyers and 90 torpedo-boats
(4) Some 249 U-boats-coastal, sea-going, and ocean-going
_____________________________________________________________
Total: 456 ships

Final study: German 'Z-Plan' the combination of the capital and smaller ships:
Seven types of Slipway dimensions in feet:
250 ft x 130 ft = for submarines
470 ft x 65 ft = for destroyers and torpedo boats
600 ft x 75 ft = for light cruisers
690 ft x 90 ft = for armored cruisers
770 ft x 85 ft = for heavy cruisers and steamships
900 ft x 120 ft = for battleships (31,000 tons to 42,000 tons)
1,150 ft x 130 ft = for super battleships (56,000 tons) and aircraft carriers (23,000 tons)

How many would be needed for each Class of ships?

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LWD
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Re: Plan Z

Post by LWD » 01 Nov 2010 13:05

nebelwerferXXX wrote: Seven types of Slipway dimensions in feet:
250 ft x 130 ft = for submarines
470 ft x 65 ft = for destroyers and torpedo boats
600 ft x 75 ft = for light cruisers
690 ft x 90 ft = for armored cruisers
770 ft x 85 ft = for heavy cruisers and steamships
900 ft x 120 ft = for battleships (31,000 tons to 42,000 tons)
1,150 ft x 130 ft = for super battleships (56,000 tons) and aircraft carriers (23,000 tons)

How many would be needed for each Class of ships?
Where are these numbers from?
I think I've hear or possibly even seen pictures of multiple smaller ships/boats being constructed in some of the larger slipways.

As an aside, why quote your self quoteing your self?

nebelwerferXXX
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Re: Plan Z

Post by nebelwerferXXX » 01 Nov 2010 13:13

LWD wrote:
nebelwerferXXX wrote: Seven types of Slipway dimensions in feet:
250 ft x 130 ft = for submarines
470 ft x 65 ft = for destroyers and torpedo boats
600 ft x 75 ft = for light cruisers
690 ft x 90 ft = for armored cruisers
770 ft x 85 ft = for heavy cruisers and steamships
900 ft x 120 ft = for battleships (31,000 tons to 42,000 tons)
1,150 ft x 130 ft = for super battleships (56,000 tons) and aircraft carriers (23,000 tons)

How many would be needed for each Class of ships?
Where are these numbers from?
I think I've hear or possibly even seen pictures of multiple smaller ships/boats being constructed in some of the larger slipways.

As an aside, why quote your self quoteing your self?
What I mean is that, it's a continuation of the 1st quote up to this last one. That's the purpose. The slipway dimensions were taken from a post that I have already forgotten who posted it. Just search it...Okay?

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LWD
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Re: Plan Z

Post by LWD » 01 Nov 2010 13:22

Quoteing someone elses information without sourceing it reduces it's value and may be considered plagerism. Furthermore why should an interested reader have to go searching through multiple pages, threads, and forums to find the source of your information? Especially if it's not a direct quote it may be a futile search. PLS source your information.

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Re: Plan Z

Post by nebelwerferXXX » 02 Nov 2010 01:05

LWD wrote:Quoteing someone elses information without sourceing it reduces it's value and may be considered plagerism. Furthermore why should an interested reader have to go searching through multiple pages, threads, and forums to find the source of your information? Especially if it's not a direct quote it may be a futile search. PLS source your information.
Next time!

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Re: Plan Z

Post by nebelwerferXXX » 12 Nov 2010 10:43

Aside from the 'Z-plan' ships also included were the Fuhrer's Navy ships that saw action during WW II:

2 battleships:
---Bismarck
---Tirpitz (sunk by Bomber Command Lancasters with 12,000-lb bombs)

2 pocket-battleships:
---Scharnhorst (sunk by the British fleet in the Arctic)
---Gneisenau

3 armored ships:
---Deutschland
---Admiral Scheer (steaming 46,000 miles and sinking 100,000 tons of Allied shipping in the process)
---Graf Spee

5 heavy cruisers:
---Hipper...13,900 tons (sinking a dozen vessels totalling 66,000 gross tons)
---Blucher...13,900 tons (torpedoed and sunk by a Norwegian coastal battery)
---Prinz Eugen (ceded to the USA after the war and as a target ship at Bikini Atoll)
---Seydlitz
---Lutzow (sold, incomplete to the Soviet Union in 1939)

6 light cruisers:

sources:
Hitler's high seas fleet
German Weapons of World War II
Last edited by nebelwerferXXX on 13 Nov 2010 02:06, edited 2 times in total.

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mescal
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Re: Plan Z

Post by mescal » 12 Nov 2010 12:22

The Plan being approved only in January 1939, and all warships you list having been laid down before this date, none of them could actually be labelled 'Z-Plan ship'.

And Seydlitz was not sold to USSR.
Olivier

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Takao
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Re: Plan Z

Post by Takao » 12 Nov 2010 23:27

Mescal is correct,

The Seydlitz was not sold to the Soviets in 1939. The Soviets made an offer to buy the ship, however Germany did not want to sell her. The Seydlitz, as a heavy cruiser, was nearly complete, when the Germans decided to convert her into an aircraft carrier. Due to Allied air attacks the ship was moved a few times, eventually winding up in Königsberg. By this time, work on converting her had ceased and she was used as a barracks ship, before being scuttled to prevent her from falling into Soviet hands. After the war she was raised and turned over to the Soviets in 1947. Shortly thereafter, she was removed from service and eventually scrapped.

PS Given all the errors you have been posting nebelwerferXXX, I think you need to find better source material.

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Re: Plan Z

Post by nebelwerferXXX » 13 Nov 2010 02:21

battleship Bismarck:
---250.5 meters...41,700 tons...2,200 officers and men
---eight 15-inch guns (4 x 2)
---twelve 5.9-inch guns (6 x 2)
---sixteen 4.1-inch AA guns (8 x 2)
---sixteen 37-mm AA guns (8 x 2)
---thirty-six 20-mm AA guns (4 x 4)(6 x 2)(8 x 1)
---two float planes

battleship Tirpitz:
---250.5 meters...42,800 tons...2,530 officers and men
---eight 15-inch guns (4 x 2)
---twelve 5.9-inch guns (6 x 2)
---sixteen 4.1-inch AA guns (8 x 2)
---sixteen 37-mm AA guns (8 x 2)
---fifty-eight 20-mm AA guns (4 x 4)(16 x 2)(10 x 1)
---eight 21-inch torpedo tubes (2 x 4)
---eight float planes

source:
Hitler's War Machine
Last edited by nebelwerferXXX on 14 Nov 2010 00:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Takao
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Re: Plan Z

Post by Takao » 13 Nov 2010 03:47

(cough) Better source material (cough)

Battleship Bismarck
250.5 meters
That was her overall length when the hull was launched, she would be fitted with an "Atlantik Bow" before being completed and commissioned. This would give her an overall length of about 253.6 meters.
41,700 tons
Is this her "light ship", "design", "standard", "full load", or "battle load" displacement? You should specify what type of displacement you are using, because there are several. 41,700 tons does not match with what I have seen.

Bismarck - August, 1940
Light Ship: 38,892 tons - (39,517 mt)
Design: 44,734 tons - (45,451 mt)
Full Load: 48,626 tons - (49,406 mt)
Battle Load: 49,609 tons - (50,405 mt)
2,200 officers and men
The number of crew varied. Normal crew compliment without a flag officer and his staff embarked was 1,927. With a flag embarked it was 2,106. Of course, as additions were made to a ship's electronics and weaponry this number would be expected to rise. During the Bismarck's only mission, her crew compliment was 2,221.
thirty-six 20-mm AA guns (4 x 4)(6 x 2)(8 x 1)
As commissioned, the Bismarck only had 12 20mm single mounts, in April, 1941, two quadruple 20mm mounts would be added.
two float planes
The Bismarck carried 4 Arado 196 float planes: T3 + AK, T3 + DL, T3 + IH, T3 + MJ


As for the Tirpitz, similar mistakes are made.
250.5 meters

The Tirpitz had her "Atlantik Bow" fitted during normal construction, so at launch her length should be 253.6 meters.

The displacement for the Tirpitz is also off, not matching anything I have seen. Her displacements are roughly 20 tons heavier than the comprable Bismarck ones.

The Tirpitz's 20mm compliment, at the time of her sinking, was 78.

The maximum storage space for float planes was 6, 2 on the catapult and four planes carried in her hangers. The normal amount carried was 4.

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Re: Plan Z

Post by nebelwerferXXX » 13 Nov 2010 23:37

Dry Dock 'Elbe 17': 1,150 ft x 130 ft:
The planned 700,000-ton KMS Fuhrer super battleship was not suited to Dry Dock 'Elbe 17' because the dimensions of KMS Fuhrer was 2,000 ft x 300 ft.

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Re: Plan Z

Post by nebelwerferXXX » 14 Nov 2010 10:41

Standard Displacement:
1) 41,700-ton battleship Bismarck
2) 42,800-ton battleship Tirpitz
3) 31,800-ton battle-cruiser Scharnhorst
4) 31,850-ton battle-cruiser Gneisenau

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mescal
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Re: Plan Z

Post by mescal » 15 Nov 2010 17:03

nebelwerferXXX wrote: The planned 700,000-ton KMS Fuhrer super battleship was not suited to Dry Dock 'Elbe 17' because the dimensions of KMS
There was no such thing as a "planned KMS Fuhrer".
1) There is a distinction between a planned warship and a paper study - most of the designs developped over the years never reached the "planned" status.
2) Kriegsmarine never named capital ships before launch.
Olivier

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The 1,590,750-ton Plan Z

Post by nebelwerferXXX » 16 Nov 2010 02:04

Material Requirements: Plan Z

CAPITAL SHIPS:
(a) Six x 56,000-ton battleships...336,000 tons
(b) Two x 42,000-ton battleships...84,000 tons
(c) Three x 32,000-ton battle-cruisers...96,000 tons
(d) Three x 12,000-ton pocket-battleships...36,000 tons
(e) Four x 30,000-ton aircraft-carriers...120,000 tons

SMALLER SHIPS:
(f) Five x 10,000-ton '8-inch gun' heavy cruisers...50,000 tons
(g) 44 x 10,000-ton '6-inch gun' light cruisers...440,000 tons
(h) 68 x 2,500-ton destroyers...170,000 tons
(i) 90 x 800-ton torpedo-boats...72,000 tons
(j) 249 x 750-ton U-boats...186,750 tons
_________________________________________________
T O T A L : 1,590,750 tons of construction shipbuilding materials

note: All weights were standard displacement

sources:
Hitler's high sea fleet
Encyclopedia of World War II
Last edited by nebelwerferXXX on 16 Nov 2010 05:57, edited 2 times in total.

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