Italian 8th Army OOB?

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USAF1986
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Italian 8th Army OOB?

Post by USAF1986 » 27 Sep 2002 01:28

Hello! Can anyone provide the order of battle for the Italian 8th Army in Russia by corps and division for November-December 1942?

Thanks,
Shawn

JLEES
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Italian 8th Army August 1942

Post by JLEES » 27 Sep 2002 03:22

Shawn,
Here is the 8th Army OOB in August 1942. I hope this will help.
Italian 8th Army
2nd Corps
2nd Infantry Division
3rd Infantry Division
5th Infantry Division
35th Corps
9th Infantry Division
52th Infantry Division
3rd Celere Division
Alipini Corps
2nd Alpini Division
3rd Alpini Division
4th Alpini Division
James

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USAF1986
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Post by USAF1986 » 27 Sep 2002 05:11

James,

Outstanding! Just what I was looking for...thanks!

Regards,
Shawn

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Lupo Solitario
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Post by Lupo Solitario » 28 Sep 2002 09:06

At December 10th, 1942, ARMIR had this deployment form North to South:

Italian Alpine Corps
2nd Alpine Division
3rd Alpine Division
4th Alpine Division

Italian II Corps
5th Infantry Division
3rd Infantry Division

Italian XXXV Corps
298th German Infatry Division
9th Italian autotrasportabile Infantry Division

German XXIX Corps
52nd Italian Autotrasportabile Division
3rd Italian Celere Division
2nd Italian Infantry Division

reserves (uncomplete, there was some other german too)
156th Italian Infantry Division (occupation)
27th German Panzer Division (in forming)

bye

Lupo

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Andy H
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Post by Andy H » 28 Sep 2002 10:36

Try this link

http://www.freeport-tech.com/WWII/index.htm

:D Andy from the Shire

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Italian Organization

Post by JLEES » 28 Sep 2002 13:10

Lupo,
The German 29th Corps in the Italian 8th Army looks interesting. They had a German Corps HQ commanding three Italian divisions in it? In WWII there was also a few cases of SS Corps HQ with no SS divisions in the organization, but I found it interesting a German Corps HQ commanded three Italian divisions. Was there also any German units (besides units organic to the Corps) in the organization?

German XXIX Corps
52nd Italian Autotrasportabile Division
3rd Italian Celere Division
2nd Italian Infantry Division

James

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Lupo Solitario
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Post by Lupo Solitario » 28 Sep 2002 22:32

strange but true, my documents show that at indicate date German 29th Korps controlled no german units...anyway german units of ARMIR is a largely unknown argument. An Army Corps of a nation which controls no unit of that nation is quite strange but it's unusual but certainly not the only case in WWII (also if I don't remember another case conrning German)
I think that 29th Korps controlled German units before Operation Uranus. In November 1942 quite all german units of ARMIR were took away to go to fill the rumenian front. Probably the 29th Korps command was left on his place while subordinate units moved and were substitued by italians

My opinion

Lupo

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Italian OOB

Post by JLEES » 29 Sep 2002 01:59

Lupo,
I can see strange things happening with Corps organizations around the time of Stalingrad. The German units must have been transferred out to fill in on other fronts and this eventually left three Italian divisions being subordinate to a German Corps HQ with no German divisions attached to the organization.
Interesting,
James

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Andy H
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Post by Andy H » 30 Sep 2002 16:38

Hi James this is from the Die Gliederung des Deutschen Heeres for 22/12/42

The XXIX Korps has under it's direct control the Sforzesca Division plus elements of the Celere Division and Brigade Schuldt. Also subordinate to the Korps was the Italian XXXV Korps containing the German 298th Infantry Division, elements of 22nd Panzer, plus parts of Pasubio, Torino and Ravenna Infantry Divisions plus 23rd Marz Brigade

Hope this helps

:D Andy from the Shire

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Andy H
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Post by Andy H » 30 Sep 2002 16:40

Hi James this is from the Die Gliederung des Deutschen Heeres for 22/12/42

The XXIX Korps has under it's direct control the Sforzesca Division plus elements of the Celere Division and Brigade Schuldt. Also subordinate to the Korps was the Italian XXXV Korps containing the German 298th Infantry Division, elements of 22nd Panzer, plus parts of Pasubio, Torino and Ravenna Infantry Divisions plus 23rd Marz Brigade

Hope this helps

:D Andy from the Shire

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Andy H
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Post by Andy H » 30 Sep 2002 16:48

Hi James this is from the Die Gliederung des Deutschen Heeres for 22/12/42

The XXIX Korps has under it's direct control the Sforzesca Division plus elements of the Celere Division and Brigade Schuldt. Also subordinate to the Korps was the Italian XXXV Korps containing the German 298th Infantry Division, elements of 22nd Panzer, plus parts of Pasubio, Torino and Ravenna Infantry Divisions plus 23rd Marz Brigade

Hope this helps

:D Andy from the Shire

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8th Italian Army Organization

Post by JLEES » 30 Sep 2002 17:57

Andy,
Thanks for the information.
James

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Post by johnny_bi » 01 Oct 2002 07:57

What was the fate of italian 8th Army in Russia during WWII : important battles, casualities , etc ?


BI

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Lupo Solitario
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Post by Lupo Solitario » 01 Oct 2002 18:30

brief.....The Italian 8th Army had been activated in Russia in August-September 1942 by adding to precedent CSIR (XXXV Corps) the newcoming II Corps and Alpine Corps. The army fought the last episodes of summer russian counteroffensive, after that fortified on the right side of Don River and substantially nothing happened between september and november 1942.
In November 1942, Operation Uranus caused the sending of all the German troops of the army in help to rumenians, leaving italians alone to defend a 200 kms long front without any mobile reserve.
December 11th, 1942, Soviets launched the Operation Little Saturn on the middle sector of 8th Army (II Corps). After two dats of fighting, Italians broke. After this italian army was cut in two pieces.
At north of the breech, thanks to the few german reserves disposable and to an incredible effort of italian alpine corps, it was possible to form a new line in the Kalitwa valley where forces clashed in open for all december 1942.
At south, russian forces cut all the supply lines of italian, forcing front troops to retreat in terrible conditions. Extremely hard was the retreat of XXXV Corps which had to face hard days at Arbusowo and Tcherkowo.
At mid January 1943, Russians launched a new offensive to destroy last forces of italian army but an hard resistance to Rossosch let to alpine corps a way to retreat.
The alpine corps had to face his fate in a long series of battle unitl the last one at Nikolajewka (Janueary 26th, 1943) where alpini finally exit the pocket.
At this point there was no more an italian army in russia. Of the 200000 men forming army two months before, 90000 lacked. In a first time, it was thought to form a two division corp to let anyway an italian presence in russia but renounced after few time.

Of the 90000 italians MIA in russia, it had been calcuated that about 45000 died during retreat. The remnants became russian POWs. Of those only 10000 came back Italy at the end of war

bye

Lupo

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Post by johnny_bi » 03 Oct 2002 12:45

The major Romanian problem at Don river bend and Kalmuk Steppe was the lack of anti-tank guns , especially 75 mm AT. Did the Italiens have the same problem , how they managed to destroy soviet tanks ?

BI

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