Has Babi Yar been now totally flattened?

Sean_Lamb · Post by **Sean_Lamb** » 01 Aug 2005 06:05

My Russian is not good, but these are photos of Babi Yar today?
http://www.livejournal.com/users/yonkie/534824.html

The old photos circa 1944 showed a definite ravine, this appears to have been entirely levelled. Is that correct?

Musashi · Post by **Musashi** » 01 Aug 2005 07:24

It seems the monument is in Kyiv.

Sean_Lamb · Post by **Sean_Lamb** » 01 Aug 2005 09:06

Ah well perhaps someone knows of a photo of the modern site?

I was hoping to get some feel for the surronding area rather than a close up of a memorial.
In order to compare with the historical photos.

Sean_Lamb · Post by **Sean_Lamb** » 01 Aug 2005 09:28

z.B.
This photo; the image quality is poor but you sort of make out the ravine in the background. Am I right in thinking these are just heaped up clothes after the Aktion?

Karman · Post by **Karman** » 01 Aug 2005 11:17

Sean_Lamb wrote:My Russian is not good, but these are photos of Babi Yar today?
http://www.livejournal.com/users/yonkie/534824.html

The old photos circa 1944 showed a definite ravine, this appears to have been entirely levelled. Is that correct?

The Baby Yar story has not been flattened. The only revisionism it has is the rate of Jews among the executed people. Given that the total number of executed people in Babiy Yar was about 100 thousand people, the rate of Jews there could be one third only . They say that 33 thousand Jews are killed in Babi Yar. All the rest are Ukrainians and Russians .
http://www.zerkalo-nedeli.com/nn/show/461/42175/

Sean_Lamb · Post by **Sean_Lamb** » 02 Aug 2005 01:08

The Baby Yar story has not been flattened.

Well I was refering to the physical location not the metaphorical concept.

I was looking for modern photos of the site to compare with archival photos.
(your link didnt response to me, so I dont know if they contained them or not)

Sean_Lamb · Post by **Sean_Lamb** » 02 Aug 2005 01:12

The classic 1944 picture

There are also satellite pictures of Kiev on google earth. If anyone has rough directions for Babi Yar (ie North, East, West, X km approx) I was going to see if I could locate it.

RACPISA · Post by **RACPISA** » 02 Aug 2005 21:25

I was reading a book that unfortunately, I just brought back to the library. But it had an account of an accident that took place in the 60's involving Babi Yar. I found a summary of it here:

1961: A wall erected at the edge of the Babi Yar, Ukraine, killing ground collapses, dumping mud, water, and human remains into the streets of Kiev. Twenty-four people are killed in subsequent fires and in flooded buildings and tram cars.

http://www.holocaustchronicle.org/StaticPages/673.html

Sean_Lamb · Post by **Sean_Lamb** » 03 Aug 2005 05:28

1961: A wall erected at the edge of the Babi Yar, Ukraine, killing ground collapses, dumping mud, water, and human remains into the streets of Kiev. Twenty-four people are killed in subsequent fires and in flooded buildings and tram cars.

So there were some bodies exhumed from Babi Yar after all. That will be a blow to the deniers. I am guessing there must have been some kind of reburial or memorial of the only humans remains of 34 000 Jews to be found.

And it sounds a reasonably major disaster even for the SU at the time. The website you provided forgot to provide a source for their information.

But I am sure somebody must know it?

Dan · Post by **Dan** » 03 Aug 2005 15:12

So there were some bodies exhumed from Babi Yar after all. That will be a blow to the deniers.

I don't think anyone denies large numbers of people were killed there, the question is were the perps Soviets, Germans or both.

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 03 Aug 2005 15:20

Readers interested in learning more about Babi Yar may find these threads helpful:

Babi Yar - information about the massacre, and the coverup
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=62313
Mattogno and Graf on Babi Yar
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=62380
Babi Yar
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=55367
Extraordinary Commission Report on Kiev 1944
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=42076
John Ball on Babij Jar (Babi Yar)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=41827
Babi Yar
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=439

Sean_Lamb · Post by **Sean_Lamb** » 04 Aug 2005 05:05

I have been reading through those threads slowly.

I am rather curious about the air-photos and if the exact site or sites can be located there.

I have also looked at the comtemporary Hoele photo of the site.

To me its difficult to see how this photo

Supposedly taken a year after can actually represent where 34-100 000 had been buried and then dug up and burnt.

You would expect to see hugh scaring or detritus of the burning process, but the sides of the ravine seem untouched, in parts well vegetated and in other parts, what you would expect for a ravine, fairly exposed earth and rock but geologically undisturbed.

Its also hard to match this photo as being an "after" photo of the Hoele photo that shows the (what appears to be the same) ravine being filled with earth.

But it would be quite consistent with a "before" photo.

That is my interest in finding out what the ravine looks like today.

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 04 Aug 2005 05:32

Sergey Romanov has collected Johannes Hoele's October 1941 Babi Yar pictures and posted links to them on the RODOH forum at http://p102.ezboard.com/frodohforumfrm1 ... =829.topic

Sean_Lamb · Post by **Sean_Lamb** » 04 Aug 2005 08:13

Well do you think these two photos
http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/gallery2/68544.htm
http://skeptiq.stml.net/misc/hoele/h15.jpg
are of the same place?

They are both at the head of a ravine looking down. But maybe different ravines?

It is certainly difficult to see how the supposedly 1944 photo could have come AFTER the supposed 1941 photo. Especially if the site had been totally disturbed in late 1943.

I have nothing against a number of people being shot in the location of the 1944 but it is difficult to see how thousands could have been shoot, buried on site, dug up and burnt and then leave the site looking it does in that photo.

I THINK the photos are of the same location. Do both ravines seem to do a small turn to the right and then look they do a major turn to the left out of sight? Or that would be my guess.

Sean_Lamb · Post by **Sean_Lamb** » 05 Aug 2005 05:16

Well I am not sure if these two photos are of the same place.

http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/gallery2/68544.htm
http://skeptiq.stml.net/misc/hoele/h15.jpg

I am open to persuasion either way.

But the 2nd photo definitely looks like the halfway stage to becoming something like this.

While it might be tempting to imagine that underneath that earth in the Hoele photo lie 1000s of bodies, to me it looks just like landfill.

And landfill is what Babi Yar seems to have been flattened out with.

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Has Babi Yar been now totally flattened?

Has Babi Yar been now totally flattened?

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