*Photos of Soviet tractors, used by artillery: identify, pls

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BIGpanzer
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#16

Post by BIGpanzer » 11 Aug 2005, 18:30

Also very shortly about Soviet experimental SP guns and armored tractors, based on "Kommunar" chassis.
Those cheap SP guns were planned to use as infantry support vehicles.

SU-2: SP gun with rotating 76mm divisional cannon M1902, 1 example in 1931 (crew 6 men; 10 t; 14 km/h; 150 km range; used strenthened suspension, fuel tank was placed over the right caterpillar; 6-10 mm armor; SP gun could tow the 2.5 t trailer with 200 shells and fire in motion; successfully tested but didn't go into serial production).

SU-5: SP gun with rotating 76mm AA gun M1915, 1 example in 1932 (crew 6 men; 9.4 t; without armor; with 4 tiltable claws; it was planned to produce 12 copies, but tractor chassis was weak for AA gun).

D-10: armored tractor with 76mm regimental gun + 2 MGs (+ 2 reserve), 1 example in 1931 (crew 3 men; 11.32 t; 6-16 mm armor; 8 km/h; 120 km range)
D-14: armored troop-carrier for 25 soldiers with 2 MGs, 1 example in 1931 (crew 2 men; 12.62 t; 6-11 mm armor; 6 km/h; 150 km range)
D-15: chemical tank with 2 cisterns for 4000 L of poison-gas + 1 MG (+ 1 reserve), 1 example in 1931 (crew 2 men; weight 18 t; speed 7 km/h) - had bad cross-country ability.

All "D" tractors (engineer Dyrenkov was also the designer of Soviet light armored cars of 1930s) had strengthened suspension and speed 5-10 km/h, were tested, but had many disadvantages as bad engine cooling, bad cabin ventilation and low-powered fuel pump.
So later Soviets developed SP guns only on tank chassis.

http://www.morozov.com.ua/images/p114l.jpg (SU-2)
http://bronetehnika.narod.ru/kommunar/d10.jpg (D-10)
http://bronetehnika.narod.ru/kommunar/d14_2.jpg (D-14, note the three doors on each side for the troops)
To see the last two photos you need to click ones more on the file name after the window appeared

Any opinions and notes are welcome :) :wink: Otherwise it's not so interesting for me :P :P
BIGpanzer

P.S. One more photo of STZ-NATI (see previous posts) tractor:
http://www.russianwarrior.com/1930vecindex_STZNATI.htm (abandoned, probably 1941)
And S-60 tractor - excellent ( 8O ) 1/35 scale model:
http://www.missing-lynx.com/gallery/rus ... iyama1.jpg :)
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BIGpanzer
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#17

Post by BIGpanzer » 12 Aug 2005, 15:46

I found a very interesting photo, take a look: http://www.autogallery.org.ru/k/sa/stz- ... ydeww2.jpg
I don't understand for 100% - was it operated by Soviet soldiers with the help of civilian woman-driver or it was captured by German soldiers? The second seems more likely (look at the towing gun with limber).

Image

This is the main Soviet agricultural tractor of 1930s STZ-KhTZ 15/30 (modified USA "International" 10/20, produced in USSR in 1930-1937 in very large amounts: 397000 copies, much more than were produced in USA, some Soviet modifications were exported to Turkey, Iran and Netherlands). Weight 3 t; engine - 32.5 hp; speed 7.5 km/h.
It seems unlikely that those obsolete and low-powered agricultural tractors with steel wheels were used by Soviet Army officialy, but in 1941-1942 many of them were mobilized from collective farms and were used for towing guns quite widely, because of great losses of artillery prime movers.

This is confirmed with additional photo: http://www.autogallery.org.ru/k/sa/41st ... ydeww2.jpg (abandoned Soviet STZ-KhTZ tractors, 122mm howitzers M-30 and half-tracked artillery prime movers GAZ-60).

http://www.autogallery.org.ru/k/t/traktor.jpg
http://www.autogallery.org.ru/k/t/htz_vvk.jpg (still preserved somewhere?)

Photo of the Soviet wheel universal tractor STZ-KhTZ 15/30 (397000 copies, 1930-1937)
is from http://www.avtomash.ru/pred/muzei_t/cxtz15.gif
Attachments
STZ-KhTZ 15-30 wheel universal tractor.gif
STZ-KhTZ 15-30 wheel universal tractor.gif (13.17 KiB) Viewed 4133 times
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 13 Dec 2005, 00:31, edited 4 times in total.
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BIGpanzer
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#18

Post by BIGpanzer » 13 Aug 2005, 20:55

Could anybody identify the gun, towing by STZ-KhTZ 15/30 (photo above)?
I am not 100% sure........

Also the model of destroyed howitzer near abandoned STZ-NATI tractor (photo from 08 August, my post; probably, 152mm M-10?)....

Thanks in advance, BIGpanzer
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#19

Post by BIGpanzer » 14 Aug 2005, 13:41

Nobody knows? :(
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Michael Emrys
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#20

Post by Michael Emrys » 14 Aug 2005, 19:26

About the gun in the photo, my best guess—and I confess it's not a very good one—is that it is some version of the 76mm field gun. It looks to me like it was an interim model, or something thrown together out of parts of two or more different models. For instance, the wheels look like they are off the Model 1936 and the shield kind of resembles that of the Model 1939. And you can't see the barrel, breach, or recuperator, so that limits the clues.

Sorry I can't be of more help...
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#21

Post by BIGpanzer » 14 Aug 2005, 21:54

Hello, Grease_Spot!
Thanks for the reply.
I tried to identify the guns on these photos also and what I suppose.
The destroyed gun, towed by STZ-NATI tractor (my post from 8 August), was, probably, 152mm Soviet howitzer mod.1938 M-10. If so, this photo is very rear as at first STZ-NATI tractor was used rearly for towing such heavy guns (weight 4.5 t) - but normal weight for STZ-NATI trailer was only 2.6 t. And secondly - M-10 howitzer was a rear artillery model itself: only 1522 were produced because it was very heavy for divisional artillery and not powerful for corps artillery.

As for the photo with agricultural STZ-KhTZ 15/30 - me seems it was captured by the Germans and 2 German soldiers with the help of the Russian civil woman-driver towed 10.5cm German light howitzer le.F.H.18 (note the shape of the shield and steel wheels, Soviet guns didn't have such design) - its weight 3330 kg with limber was also quite high for 32.5 hp (only 15 hp on the towing arrangement) STZ-KhTZ.

Do you agree with me?
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#22

Post by Michael Emrys » 15 Aug 2005, 04:19

BIGpanzer wrote:As for the photo with agricultural STZ-KhTZ 15/30 - me seems it was captured by the Germans and 2 German soldiers with the help of the Russian civil woman-driver towed 10.5cm German light howitzer le.F.H.18 (note the shape of the shield and steel wheels, Soviet guns didn't have such design) - its weight 3330 kg with limber was also quite high for 32.5 hp (only 15 hp on the towing arrangement) STZ-KhTZ.

Do you agree with me?
After studying some more photographs I am inclined to agree with your ID of the piece. In fact, at one point it crossed my mind that it might be a German piece captured by the Soviets. Are you quite sure that the two soldiers are Germans, BTW? The pic isn't clear or sharp enough for me to make out their uniforms.

But I must disagree with you about the wheels. Many of the Soviet field pieces had spoked wheels with the hard tires. Most of them would have been obsolete or obsolescent types being phased out, but the 76.2mm Model 1936 was apparently still in widespread use in 1941.
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#23

Post by BIGpanzer » 15 Aug 2005, 12:39

Hello, Grease_Spot!
Yes, your assumption is also very possible. The quality of the photo is not enough to determine for sure the uniform of the soldiers. But as me seems the soldiers had shoulder straps (Soviets acquired them only in 1943) and in 1943 there were quite enough more powerful artillery prime movers (native and Lend-Lease) in Soviet Army, also almost all agricultural tractors from occupied territories were destroyed by the Germans. Also the howitzer was, probably, German :) :) :)

As for the obsolete Soviet guns with steel wheels - yes, of course, you are right. I completely forgot about old Soviet cannons and howitzers (modernized in 1920s/1930s native of WWI period as well as used by Soviet Army in 1930s-1942 old British/French howitzers of WWI/Civil war period). Those guns really had spoked wheels with the hard tyres in contrast to modern Soviet guns, having truck's wheels with pneumatic tyres. And low-speed civil tractors (also horses) were used very widely to tow exactly such obsolete guns, because their transportation speed should not exceed ~15 km/h. Modern guns could be transported by army trucks with the transportation speed up to 60 km/h on good roads.
But as for 76.2mm divisional gun M.1936 - almost all its photos I've saw show the disk (not spoked) wheels, but exactly with hard tyres.
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#24

Post by Michael Emrys » 15 Aug 2005, 13:56

BIGpanzer wrote:But as for 76.2mm divisional gun M.1936 - almost all its photos I've saw show the disk (not spoked) wheels, but exactly with hard tyres.
I think we are using different words to describe the same thing perhaps. Yes, the only photo I have could be described as a disk wheel. But the cutouts are so arranged as to resemble a spoked wheel and do not at all resemble the truck-type wheel used on later models. Do you have any pictures that show a truck-type wheel?

Also, the photo in this thread is so poor as to be ambiguous on a number of points. I look at it and the wheels on both the gun and the caisson look to me to be the type on the M.1936. But as I say, the pic is so ambiguous that a different interpretation is possible.
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#25

Post by BIGpanzer » 15 Aug 2005, 14:41

Hi, Grease_Spot!
Yes, quite interesting discussion :wink:

76,2mm divisional guns F-22 M1936 and ZiS-3 with truck-type wheels:
http://www.weltkrieg.ru/images/original/23/2204.jpg (note also the shape of the shield)
http://walkarounds.airforce.ru/artiller ... oto013.jpg (F-22 with truck-type wheels, pneumatic tyres)
http://mk-armour.narod.ru/2002/03/Photo_10.jpg (STZ-5 transport tractors towed F-22 with truck-type wheels)
Note: I found the info that F-22 divisional cannons were towed usually by horses or "Kommunar" tractors.

http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/gall ... y/F-22.jpg (F-22 with hard tyres)

76,2mm divisional gun M1902/1930 with wooden spoked wheels:
http://www.weltkrieg.ru/images/original/23/2205.jpg

10,5cm German light field howitzer 18 with steel spoked wheels (I still suggest this model :) ):
http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/aa5/fh2.jpg
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#26

Post by Michael Emrys » 15 Aug 2005, 17:49

Excellent, BP! Very good pics! In searching back through my book on artillery, I too came across an example with wheels and tires like this one:
http://www.weltkrieg.ru/images/original/23/2204.jpg
I think the tires are either solid rubber or are of a type called "semi-pneumatic".

It is interesting that the shape of the shield on this one more closely approximates that in the original photo that you asked about:
http://walkarounds.airforce.ru/artiller ... oto013.jpg
But it is not quite, I think, the same.
Note: I found the info that F-22 divisional cannons were towed usually by horses or "Kommunar" tractors.
This does not surprise me.

Now, this one has the kinds of wheels and tires I was talking about. Not the proper shape gunshield though.
http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/gall ... y/F-22.jpg (F-22 with hard tyres)
10,5cm German light field howitzer 18 with steel spoked wheels (I still suggest this model :) ):
http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/aa5/fh2.jpg
Yes, I think you are right on this one. Very good post.

:D
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#27

Post by BIGpanzer » 15 Aug 2005, 18:51

Yes, probably, we make clear the question a little bit :)
Thanks
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