Radar site at Normandy

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AikinutNY
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Radar site at Normandy

Post by AikinutNY » 11 Aug 2005 15:01

There was a radar site located at or near the Normandy invasion site. Was it not operational or was it damaged before the invasion? Did they not detect the invasion fleet or the waves of bombers before the landings?

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Königstiger
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Post by Königstiger » 11 Aug 2005 16:18

There was more then one:

One to the North of Le Havre,
One to the South of Le Havre,
One to the West of Douvres la Delivrande,
One at Arromanches,
One to the South of Bayeux,
One to the East of Point du Hoc,
One at Cherbourg,
One to the East of Cherbourg,
One to the West of Cherbourg.

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Post by RichTO90 » 11 Aug 2005 16:37

Königstiger wrote:There was more then one:

One to the North of Le Havre,
One to the South of Le Havre,
One to the West of Douvres la Delivrande,
One at Arromanches,
One to the South of Bayeux,
One to the East of Point du Hoc,
One at Cherbourg,
One to the East of Cherbourg,
One to the West of Cherbourg.


A few more than that, depending on what you define as the invasion site. :D

Luftnachrichten-Regt. 53 –
Kdr: Oberst Flesch
Stab
Gefechtsstand – Bernay
I. Abtl.
Gefechtsstand – Paris
1. Fernsprech- und Fernschreib-Betriebs-Kompanie – Paris
2. Funk-Kompanie – Paris
3. Flugmelde-Auswerte- und Betriebs-Kompanie – Paris
4. Telegrafen-Bau-Kompanie – Paris
25. Technische-Kompanie – Cheville.
II. Abtl.
Gefechtsstand – Lisieux
5. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Auerhahn) – Cap d’Antifer
6. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Gepard) – Gaillon
7. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Baumläufer) – Bernay
8. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Distelfink) – Douvres-la-Délivrande
9. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Kangeruh) – Coutances
III. Abtl.
Gefechtsstand - Argentan
10. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Igel) – Isigny
11. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Vampir) – Vire
12. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Tausendfüssler) – Théville
13. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Ammer) – Aldernay
14. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Goldfisch) – Guernsey
15. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Imme?) – Lessay?
IV. Abtl.
Gefechtsstand – St. Lô
16. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Wurm) – Verneuil
17. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Assel) – Argentan
18. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Made) – Mamers
19. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Milbe) – Mayenne
20. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Rotauge) – Rouen
22. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Pfau) – Pontorson

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Post by Larry D. » 11 Aug 2005 17:11

RichTO90 -

May I ask the source for the above? It conflicts significantly with information I have from German documents and from ULTRA for o/a 6 June 1944.

Thanks...

--Larry

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Post by RichTO90 » 11 Aug 2005 18:03

Larry D. wrote:RichTO90 -

May I ask the source for the above? It conflicts significantly with information I have from German documents and from ULTRA for o/a 6 June 1944.

Thanks...

--Larry


Hi Larry,

It is derived from a number of sources including http://www.gyges.dk, http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de, http://www.ww2.dk, and fragmentary German documents. I am not aware that these are addressed so specifically in any ULTRA documentation, certainly not in the G.C. & C.S. Air and Military History Volume VIII and IX (HW 11/8 and HW 11/9), which I have also utilized (although I have not had an opportunity to pull the relevent daily decodes, except for HW 5/502 and HW 5/503, so it is certainly possible some data would be therein, but it would not superceed the original German records).

What exactly are the discrepancies?

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Post by Larry D. » 11 Aug 2005 18:38

Rich wrote:

What exactly are the discrepancies?


I have quite a bit on Ln.-Rgt. 53. I will start pulling it all together this afternoon in a more or less similar format, although there will be quite a few more entries. Much of mine comes from Hoffmann, Karl Otto, Ln: Die Geschichte der Luftnachrichtentruppe, 3 Bde (Neckargemünd, 1965-73), from the periodic Sigint listings put together by A.I.4/AirMin, and from a few stray documents found in NARA RG 242 (T-321 and T-971). As soon as I'm through, I'll put it up.

--Larry

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Post by jopaerya » 11 Aug 2005 18:39

Hi All

First not only the Lufwaffe had Radar in Normandy also the
Kriegsmarine .
In your list Ammer is Auderville not Alderney
and Imme and Igel are the same Radarpost.

Cap d'Antifer........Würzburg Riese Fu.M.O. 214......Calais Fu M.O. 2
Cap de la Heve.....Mammut Gustav Fu.M.O. 51.......Würzburg Riese Fu.M.O. 214...Calais/Boulogne Fu.M.O. 2/3
Houlgate..............Würzburg Riese Fu.M.O. 214.....Lorenz
Arromanches........Würzburg Riese Fu.M.O. 214......Calais Fu.M.O. 2
Percee.................Calais Fu.M.O. 2
La Pernelle...........Mammut Fu.M.O. 51
Cap Levy.............Würzburg Riese Fu.M.O. 214......Calais Fu.M.O. 2

Cap d'Antifer attacked on 11-5 , 22-5 , 23-5 , 30-5 , 2-6 , 3-6 .
Cap de la Heve attacked on 24-5 , 4-6 .
Houlgate attacked on 24-5.
Arromanches attacked on 22-5 , 23-5 , 30-5 .
Pencee attacked on 23-5 , 24-5 , 30-5 .
La Pernelle attacked on 19-5 , 22-5 , 24-5 , 2-6 , 3-6 .
Cap Levy attacked on 27-5 .

Aircrafts...... 23.18 5-6-1944 Seeko Normandie "Fliegeralarm Cherbourg
Anflüge sehr vieler Maschienen Ost- u. Westteil Halbinsel"

Ships...........02.00 6-6-1944 2 Sicherungsdivision
"Werden Ziele nordwestl. Cherbourg geortet"

Regards Jos

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Post by RichTO90 » 11 Aug 2005 19:20

jopaerya wrote:Hi All

First not only the Lufwaffe had Radar in Normandy also the
Kriegsmarine .
In your list Ammer is Auderville not Alderney
and Imme and Igel are the same Radarpost.

Cap d'Antifer........Würzburg Riese Fu.M.O. 214......Calais Fu M.O. 2
Cap de la Heve.....Mammut Gustav Fu.M.O. 51.......Würzburg Riese Fu.M.O. 214...Calais/Boulogne Fu.M.O. 2/3
Houlgate..............Würzburg Riese Fu.M.O. 214.....Lorenz
Arromanches........Würzburg Riese Fu.M.O. 214......Calais Fu.M.O. 2
Percee.................Calais Fu.M.O. 2
La Pernelle...........Mammut Fu.M.O. 51
Cap Levy.............Würzburg Riese Fu.M.O. 214......Calais Fu.M.O. 2



Excellent, thanks both!

Jos, I take it that Imme/Igel was 10. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. at Isigny? If so, then what was 15.?

Also, is the list of other sites the KM sites? If so, did they have names? (Good catch BTW, I jad forgotten completely about the KM radars.)

Rich

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Post by RichTO90 » 11 Aug 2005 19:33

Larry D. wrote:Rich wrote:

What exactly are the discrepancies?


I have quite a bit on Ln.-Rgt. 53. I will start pulling it all together this afternoon in a more or less similar format, although there will be quite a few more entries. Much of mine comes from Hoffmann, Karl Otto, Ln: Die Geschichte der Luftnachrichtentruppe, 3 Bde (Neckargemünd, 1965-73), from the periodic Sigint listings put together by A.I.4/AirMin, and from a few stray documents found in NARA RG 242 (T-321 and T-971). As soon as I'm through, I'll put it up.

--Larry


Thanks Larry, that would be helpful. I haven't had a chance to go sift through T321 and T971 nor to get to LOC to review Hoffmann (or Tessin for that matter :( ). So any bit helps, I had already been confused by the Imme/Igel business. I also have seen a variety of site codes that I can't match with a unit:

Auk
Berghuhn
Blindschleiche
Buchfink
Bulle
Dackel
Drache
Dromedar
Glucke
Grille
Lachttaube
Lurch
Maulwerf
Maus
Muffel
Nilpferd
Rochen
Schimpanse
Sperber
Trappe
Wiesel
Zobel

Any ideas? I suspect some are Ln 51, 52, 54 or 57, but am not sure where they fit in. The complete list that I have is:

Luftnachrichten-Regt. 51
Kdr: Major Udo Krauthausen
Stab
Gefechtsstand – Courthezon
I. Abtl.
Gefechtsstand – Courthezon
1. Fernsprech- und Fernschreib-Betriebs-Kompanie – Courthezon
2. Funk-Kompanie – Cheateauneuf-du-Pape
3. Flugmelde-Auswerte- und Betriebs-Kompanie – Cheateauneuf-du-Pape
4. Telegrafen-Bau-Kompanie – Cheateauneuf-du-Pape
25. Technische-Kompanie – Courthezon
II. Abtl.
5. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Mähre) – La Ciotat
6. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Maultier) – Montpellier
7. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Leuchtkäfer) – Leucate
8. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Rüsselkäfer) – St. Raphael
9. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Truthahn) – Toulon
III. Abtl.?
10. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Giraffe) – Le Salins de Grand
11. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Salamander) – Salon de Provence
12. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Mungo) – La Motte-Chalacon
13. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Alligator) – Aubenas
14. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Ochse) – Orange
15. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Nachteule) – Nimes
16. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Leguan) – Lyon
17. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Bernhardiner) – Belmont
18. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Falter) – Fleurs
19. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Baselisk) – Beaurepaire
20. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Tapir) – Tournon
21. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Muräne) – Millau
Luftnachrichten-Regt. 52
Kdr: Oberst Ernst Engelke
Stab
Gefechtsstand – St. Pol
I. Abtl.
Gefechtsstand – St. Pol
1. Fernsprech- und Fernschreib-Betriebs-Kompanie
2. Funk-Kompanie
3. Flugmelde-Auswerte- und Betriebs-Kompanie
4. Telegrafen-Bau-Kompanie
25. Technische-Kompanie
26. Funk-Leit-Kompanie
II. Abtl.
Gefechtsstand – Lille
5. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Ponny) – Le Panne
6. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Fohlen) – Voormezeele-Flandern
7. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Goldammer) – Grammont
8. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Dorsch) – Douai
9. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Krabbe) – Le Clipon
27. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Bremse) – Brügge
III. Abtl.
Gefechtsstand – St. Pol
10. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Wels) – Wissant
11. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp (Radar Station Bulldogge) – Boulogne
12. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Pferd) – St. Pol
13. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Skorpion) – Vaudricourt
14. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Fliege) – St. Valery
IV. Abtl.
Gefechtsstand – Amiens
15. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Dickhauter) – Dieppe
16. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Mücke) – Amiens
17. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Biene) – Beauvais
18. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Pudel) – Peronne
19. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Koralle) – Clermont?
V. Abtl.
Gefechtsstand –Cambrai?
20. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Motte) – Mons
21. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Kater) – Le Cateau
22. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Krebs) – Crecy
23. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Ratte) – Reims
24. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Chamäleon) – Compiegne
Luftnachrichten-Regt. 53 –
Kdr: Oberst Flesch
Stab
Gefechtsstand – Bernay
I. Abtl.
Gefechtsstand – Paris
1. Fernsprech- und Fernschreib-Betriebs-Kompanie – Paris
2. Funk-Kompanie – Paris
3. Flugmelde-Auswerte- und Betriebs-Kompanie – Paris
4. Telegrafen-Bau-Kompanie – Paris
25. Technische-Kompanie – Cheville.
II. Abtl.
Gefechtsstand – Lisieux
5. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Auerhahn) – Cap d’Antifer
6. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Gepard) – Gaillon
7. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Baumläufer) – Bernay
8. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Distelfink) – Douvres-la-Délivrande
9. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Kangeruh) – Coutances
III. Abtl.
Gefechtsstand - Argentan
10. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Igel/Imme) – Isigny
11. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Vampir) – Vire
12. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Tausendfüssler) – Théville
13. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Ammer) – Auderville
14. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Goldfisch) – Guernsey
15. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station ?) – Lessay?
IV. Abtl.
Gefechtsstand – St. Lô
16. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Wurm) – Verneuil
17. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Assel) – Argentan
18. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Made) – Mamers
19. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Milbe) – Mayenne
20. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Rotauge) – Rouen
22. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Pfau) – Pontorson
Luftnachrichten-Regt. 54
Kdr: Oberst Heinrich Bosse
Stab
Gefechtsstand – Pontivy?
I. Abtl.
Gefechtsstand – Jouy-en-Josas
1. Fernsprech- und Fernschreib-Betriebs-Kompanie
2. Funk-Kompanie
3. Flugmelde-Auswerte- und Betriebs-Kompanie
4. Telegrafen-Bau-Kompanie
32. Funk-Leit-Kompanie
35. Technische-Kompanie – Angers?
II. Abtl,
Gefechtsstand – Rennes?
5. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Frosch) – Cap Frehel
7. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Vierfüssler) – Vitre-sur-Rennes
8. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Pfauenauge) – Plougrescant?
9. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Molch) – Morlaix
III. Abtl.
Gefechtsstand – Brest?
10. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Pinguin) – Plabennec
12. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Renntier) – Pte du Raz
15. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Lachs) – Loudeauc
17. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Mandrill) – Montauban
V. Abtl.
Gefechtsstand – St. Nazaire
19. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Nutria) – St. Nazaire
21. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Lumme) – Lorient
27. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Amoebe) – Lucon-sur-La Rochelle
VII. Abtl.
Gefechtsstand – Bordeaux
28. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Vogel) – Le Verdon-sur-Mer
29. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Karpfen) – Cazaux
31. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Buntspecht) – Bayonne
Luftnachrichten-Regt. 57
Kdr.
Stab
Gefechtsstand – Paris
I. Abtl.
Gefechtsstand – Paris
1. Fernsprech- und Fernschreib-Betriebs-Kompanie
2. Funk-Kompanie
3. Flugmelde-Auswerte- und Betriebs-Kompanie
4. Telegrafen-Bau-Kompanie
II. Abtl.
Gefechtsstand – Paris?
5. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Perlhuhn) – Les Alluets-le-Roi
6. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Emu) – Etampes
7. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Nusskaher) – Nangis
8. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station?) – Dreux?
9. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Bustard) – Le Plessis-Belleville?
III. Abtl.
Gefechtsstand – Orleans?
10. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Barbe) – Brou
11. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Orang) – Orleans
12. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Bekassine) – Bellegarde
13. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Brillenschlange) – Brinon
14. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Schildkröte) – Chantillon Coligny
15. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Barsch?) – Briare
IV. Abtl.
Gefechtsstand – Troyes?
16. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Eisvogel) – Estissac
17. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Turmfalke) – Troyes
18. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Kanarienvogel) – Coulange-sur-Yonne
19. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Sautier) – Saulieu
20. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station Nebelkrähe) – Nevers
21. Flugmelde-Leit-Kp. (Radar Station?) – Autun

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RS 1800
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Post by RS 1800 » 11 Aug 2005 20:30

Radar Station Tausendfüssler, are you sure it was located at Theville? I read somewhere that it was located in the Osteck site, wich is located aprox 4 km to the northwest.

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Post by RichTO90 » 11 Aug 2005 20:32

RS 1800 wrote:Radar Station Tausendfüssler, are you sure it was located at Theville? I read somewhere that it was located in the Osteck site, wich is located aprox 4 km to the northwest.


Often the location given appears to be just the nearest easily identified town, so that could well be true.

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Post by jopaerya » 11 Aug 2005 20:41

Hello Rich

Yes Imme and Igel are the same at Isigny , according
to my German info it was 9./Ln.Regt. 53 .
So you can see don't allways trust all Internetsites.
The Kriegsmarine radarpost are normaly called with
girlnames like Emma I , Anna and Lucie , but I don't
know all the names in Normandie.
Later in war some radarpost were abandoned as you can see
on the list from 26-06-1944 for example Känguruh .

Regards Jos

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RS 1800
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Post by RS 1800 » 11 Aug 2005 20:44

jopaerya wrote:Hello Rich

Yes Imme and Igel are the same at Isigny , according
to my German info it was 9./Ln.Regt. 53 .
So you can see don't allways trust all Internetsites.
The Kriegsmarine radarpost are normaly called with
girlnames like Emma I , Anna and Lucie , but I don't
know all the names in Normandie.
Later in war some radarpost were abandoned as you can see
on the list from 26-06-1944 for example Känguruh .

Regards Jos


Do you have a larger version of this map, or maby could you please help me identify the sites to east of Cherbourg?


I found this in a french book by A Chazette:

Centre de detection radar de Carneville No. FCM68. What does the FCM68 stand for?

RichTO90
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Post by RichTO90 » 11 Aug 2005 21:04

jopaerya wrote:Hello Rich

Yes Imme and Igel are the same at Isigny , according
to my German info it was 9./Ln.Regt. 53 .
So you can see don't allways trust all Internetsites.
The Kriegsmarine radarpost are normaly called with
girlnames like Emma I , Anna and Lucie , but I don't
know all the names in Normandie.
Later in war some radarpost were abandoned as you can see
on the list from 26-06-1944 for example Känguruh .

Regards Jos


Thanks, yes that helps, although if Imme/Igel was 9. then what was 10. and where was it?

And I understand about the problems with internet sites, but these appear to be transcription errors more than anything else. :D

Rich

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AikinutNY
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So, How come nobody saw anything on D-Day?

Post by AikinutNY » 12 Aug 2005 03:59

That is even more coverage than I knew of. How come nobody spotted anything coming? Or did they and nobody acted on it?

Maybe they were not looking at the Channel and thought the incoming bombers were heading further inland.

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