Advanced Jets from the Luftwaffe...

[Erich]

Huck I have not heard this from the jet pilots who flew with Nowotny. JG 7 on paper arose from the deceased unit and they felt they were combatitive unit from the existance in September 44 onward till the transfer with a new name and the introduction of prop pilots. We are talking I know of the same thing but I feel we are both walking a very fine line only dissolved by the entry of the Unit kommandeurs statements themselves.

[Huck]

Huck I have not heard this from the jet pilots who flew with Nowotny. JG 7 on paper arose from the deceased unit and they felt they were combatitive unit from the existance in September 44 onward till the transfer with a new name and the introduction of prop pilots. We are talking I know of the same thing but I feel we are both walking a very fine line only dissolved by the entry of the Unit kommandeurs statements themselves.

Hi Erich, I'm sure that the pilots who flew Me-262 into combat since September 1944 felt exactly the way you described it. That being said, I would rather stay with the official date, especially since Nov 1944 did not mark only a formal event (change of unit's name), but also a change in role, from flight testing and combat testing to training and actual combat.

[Vincent S.]

ello

Here Is a link of al th LW logos etc...Jg7 is also there
http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/

Best Regards.

Axisfactbook...

[Huck]

Did the RAF have fully operational fighter jets as early as WWII as well?

This site will answer your question Big Orange and show you the ultimate METEOR.....

http://users.belgacom.net/aircraft1/avi ... .html#2014

http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/1416/meteor0pn.jpg

Greg

Oh and I found this website that could interest the others debating.....

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/hi ... 0144.shtml

Enjoy if it is of any help

Greg

Hi Greg,

Unfortunately both links contain serious errors. For instance on the first link claims that Meteor Mark IV saw short service during the war. In reality Mk IV prototype flew for the first time in July 1945 and production started in 1947.

The other site claims that CC-2 was fuel inefficient because it used a motorjet (called in text thermojet) instead of a pure turbojet, and motorjets are inherently inefficient. This is not true, motorjets are inherently heavy (low thrust to weight ratio, about 2 to 3 times poorer than equivalent turbojets) compared to turbojets, but the difference in efficiency is not significant. In fact in 1940 motorjets and motorfans were seriously considered for long range applications because they could consume 2 times less fuel than turbojets and offsetting this way the weight disadvantage. CC-2 engine was that inefficient because of the poor design of combustion chamber, not because it was a motorjet.

[Huck]

Did the RAF have fully operational fighter jets as early as WWII as well?

No, RAF did not have a fully operational fighter jet during ww2. There were only 2 test squadrons that flew Meteor during the war, 616 Sqn and 504 Sqn. But the pilots of those planes were not allowed to engage enemy aircraft, and they were not allowed to fly aerobatic. They did some small combat testing in that they shot down 13 V-1 (616 Sqn) during the summer of 1944 and they also did some ground attack testing in early 1945 (504 Sqn, though it not clear if they ever crossed the front line).

In comparison Luftwaffe had about 30 combat squadrons and about 10 test squadrons that were flying jet planes in combat missions at the end of the war.

[Erich]

it is interesting as a side note the JG 7 had about 4 different Wappenshields for the Me 262's, some blue background, others white. Three staffels only in I. and III. gruppe's

[Hop]

ut the pilots of those planes were not allowed to engage enemy aircraft

Do you have a source for this claim? 616 were actually scrambled to intercept enemy aircraft on more than 1 occasion in 1945, although they never had a conclusive encounter with German aircraft.

and they were not allowed to fly aerobatic.

This was quite common for RAF aircraft of many types at various times, and almost all aircraft had severe restrictions on the types of aerobatics that were permitted.

They did some small combat testing in that they shot down 13 V-1 (616 Sqn) during the summer of 1944 and they also did some ground attack testing in early 1945 (504 Sqn, though it not clear if they ever crossed the front line).

They claimed 7 German aircraft in ground attacks, so I think they must have.

In comparison Luftwaffe had about 30 combat squadrons and about 10 test squadrons that were flying jet planes in combat missions at the end of the war.

Well, 30 operational squadrons is a bit of a stretch, I think, rather like the hunderds of German divisions Hitler thought he was commanding in 1945. Certainly the 262 never managed more than a few dozen sorties in a day. (I believe the best day ever saw 58 262 sorties, which doesn't seem a lot from 40 odd squadrons, at about 1.5 sorties per squadron)

The Meteor was in service with a couple of operational squadrons, though, and by the RAF's definitions was operational. Certainly 616 were not declared non operational for the second half of 1944 and first half of 1945.

[SES]

Did the RAF have fully operational fighter jets as early as WWII as well?

No, RAF did not have a fully operational fighter jet during ww2. There were only 2 test squadrons that flew Meteor during the war, 616 Sqn and 504 Sqn. But the pilots of those planes were not allowed to engage enemy aircraft, and they were not allowed to fly aerobatic. They did some small combat testing in that they shot down 13 V-1 (616 Sqn) during the summer of 1944 and they also did some ground attack testing in early 1945 (504 Sqn, though it not clear if they ever crossed the front line).

In comparison Luftwaffe had about 30 combat squadrons and about 10 test squadrons that were flying jet planes in combat missions at the end of the war.

30 combat sqns at the end of the war does sound a little enthusiastic.

WL Gliederung i.a.w. Price 9 APR 1945:

Stab, II and III/JG 7; 6 sqns; 53 Me 262
I/KG(J) 54; 3 sqns; 21 Me 262
II/JG 400; 3 sqns; 22 Me 163
JV 44; 1 sqn 15 Me 262
10/NJG 11; 1 sqn; 7 Me 262
I/KG 51; 1 sqn; 11 Me 262
II/KG 51; 1 sqn; 2 Me 262
KG 76; 2 sqns; 4 Ar 234.
NAGr 6; 1 "sqn" 3 Me 262
FAGr 100; 1 sqn; 1 Ar 234
FAGr 123; 1 sqn; 7 Ar 234
FAGr 33 1 sqn; 8 Ar 234

JG 1 was converting to He 162 and was operational with about 50 a/c at the end of the war

figures are servicable aircraft, and the rest of the operational squadrons are ?
bregds
SES

[Huck]

ut the pilots of those planes were not allowed to engage enemy aircraft

Do you have a source for this claim? 616 were actually scrambled to intercept enemy aircraft on more than 1 occasion in 1945, although they never had a conclusive encounter with German aircraft.

That they were scrambled for intercept just once during their one year of combat testing says a lot about their "operational" capabilities: they had none. And please say that they had troubles finding German aircraft; USAAF claimed hundreds of them each month, until the end of war.

and they were not allowed to fly aerobatic.

This was quite common for RAF aircraft of many types at various times, and almost all aircraft had severe restrictions on the types of aerobatics that were permitted.

For fighters this was very uncommon. None of the fighters had such restrictions for one year. Typhoon/Tempest had structural problems that made impossible for them to perform as fighters (though those were not the only problems with them), but they were relegated to ground attack, and were used actively.

There was no reason to restrict the aerobatics on it unless there was little faith in its structural resistance (handling was not the problem, AFAIK). Even later models (F.4 for instance) had the controls wired to be heavy, so that the pilot was less likely to execute fast maneuvers that could stress the airframe over the limits.

They did some small combat testing in that they shot down 13 V-1 (616 Sqn) during the summer of 1944 and they also did some ground attack testing in early 1945 (504 Sqn, though it not clear if they ever crossed the front line).

They claimed 7 German aircraft in ground attacks, so I think they must have.

Good for them, but still, 7 claims on the ground remains very little.

In comparison Luftwaffe had about 30 combat squadrons and about 10 test squadrons that were flying jet planes in combat missions at the end of the war.

Well, 30 operational squadrons is a bit of a stretch, I think, rather like the hunderds of German divisions Hitler thought he was commanding in 1945. Certainly the 262 never managed more than a few dozen sorties in a day. (I believe the best day ever saw 58 262 sorties, which doesn't seem a lot from 40 odd squadrons, at about 1.5 sorties per squadron)

Well, it is truth that those squadrons were understrength, nevertheless there were about 40 combat squadrons on paper and about 30 combat squadrons that actually had pilots to fly the jets (without counting the testing squadrons that did some combat missions). See the list compiled by SES, though be aware of the fact that this list is not complete.

The Meteor was in service with a couple of operational squadrons, though, and by the RAF's definitions was operational. Certainly 616 were not declared non operational for the second half of 1944 and first half of 1945.

With no enemy plane claimed and just 7 planes claimed on the ground in one entire year (of a brutal war), those were probably the worst 2 squadrons in the entire RAF. In reality those 2 squadrons had excellent pilots that had to test fly a new (type of) plane that was not ready for combat.

[JonS]

stuff ... In reality ... not ready for combat

Source please.

[Shc]

2) Why were jet bombers favoured over jet fighters?

Hitler favoured jet bombers because he knew that victory of any sort wouldn't be possible without having somekind of support of the Infantry. The Ju87 which previously gave very good support during the early years, couldn't compete against the air superiority/supremacy of the Allied air force and a Me262 jet fighter wouldn't probably change that situation.

In addition, Prof.Messerschmitt did assure to Hitler that the Me262 were easily capable of caring bombs...so I'm suspecting that Hitler had expectations for it (and probably wanted to have Me262s bomb support in the future...such as for the expected invasion of France).


~Shc~

[SES]

Dear Huck and others,
I think this discussion could benefit from:
1. Reference to sources.
2. Quotes from sources
instead of unsubstantiated claims.

I have listed the Lw jet sqns I could find in a fairly reliable published source, I just cross-checked with BA/MA RL 2/III 725-735 and Price is not too far off the mark. In the meantime the 30 sqns have now grown to 40.

"Well, it is truth that those squadrons were understrength, nevertheless there were about 40 combat squadrons on paper and about 30 combat squadrons that actually had pilots to fly the jets (without counting the testing squadrons that did some combat missions). See the list compiled by SES, though be aware of the fact that this list is not complete".

Huck I (we ?) ask you again, please list the units you refer to and state your source.
bregds
SES

[Huck]

Huck I (we ?) ask you again, please list the units you refer to and state your source.

I do list my sources, and not only that, I also compare them to see if they are wrong or not (which is what you should have done with the list put up by Price). However, I do not list sources with every post I write, because I, like most people around here, have a day job that I have to take care of, we are not historians with the sources right next to us. I do list sources when it is required or when I am asked for them.

Now, the source for the list below is Michael Holm's site, particularly this page:

http://www.ww2.dk/articles/elflr1.html

The table below contains a list of units that were flying jets at the beginning of the April 1945. The two rightmost columns contain the number of squadrons in each of those units, the value on the left being the number of squadrons on paper (data also from Michael Holm's site), the number on the left is the number of squadrons that could form the pilots available to those units. There is a sum below the two columns on the right.

[SES]

Hi Huck,
On the link quoted it states the following from I/JG 1 and down on your table:

Auffrischungs-, Neuaufstellungs- bzw. Umrüstverbände bei II. Fliegerkorps und Gen.d.Jagdflieger ( refreshing, under establishment/under conversion),

that is 14 non-operational paper squadrons.

please also see attachment.

bregds
SES

[Huck]

That's very good, cut 4 squadrons from there. But I wouldn't go as far as term them paper squadrons. They had pilots that were just converting to jets, they were not learning to fly (or fly in combat). Conversion as it was thought at that time shouldn't have taken very long.

--

Oh, I got it, I thought you were talking about I./JG1. Yes, 14 squadrons in total, and 6 in terms of available pilots.
We should remember though, that II./KG51 and II./JG7 have seen better days (just a couple of months before), probably around 4 squadrons in total. Also there was JV44 that on paper had 3 squadrons (they had quite a few claims too). Anyways, we are still around 30 squadrons, as initially stated.