Chinese german trained units

Discussions on all aspects of China, from the beginning of the First Sino-Japanese War till the end of the Chinese Civil War. Hosted by YC Chen.
Tycoon2002
Member
Posts: 98
Joined: 06 Jun 2005 12:31
Location: London, UK

Chinese german trained units

Post by Tycoon2002 » 02 Sep 2005 00:42

Anyone have any information about these Chinese units General Chaing-kai shek used against the Japanese in the battle of Shanghai and elsewhere across the Pacific?

From what I think I know these troops were the elite of the KMT army and Chaing Kai shek only had a small number of them so he had to use them wisely, they also were maybe the equivlaent to the Waffen SS to Germany in terms of the training of the soldier. From what I definely know the German trained units gave the Japanese hell and at point was driving the Japanese back to sea but only because of the heavy Navy artillery from the Japanese that the Chinese had to retreat and make defensive positions inland.

User avatar
asiaticus
Member
Posts: 923
Joined: 03 Mar 2004 04:53
Location: Lake Elsinore CA USA

German Trained and Reorganized Divisions.

Post by asiaticus » 02 Sep 2005 03:39

During the last years of the German Military Mission to China, an agreement was reached whereby Germany was obliged to train 20 infantry divisions by 1937/1938; the whole Chinese army, navy and air force by the early 1940's. However, by the time of the Japanese invasion of 1937, only eight divisions were fully trained by the Germans.

There were actually 19 so called German trained divisions (1st phase - 2nd, 11th, 14th, 25th, 36th, 57th, 67th, 87th, Education Unit. 2nd phase - 3rd, 4th, 6th, 9th, 10th, 27th, 80th, 83th, 88th, 89th). The 87th and 88th have ALWAYS been German trained and better equipped.

The rest had 1-2 German advisors in each division, and mostly local made equipment. They do look German by having the M35 helmet. The "education unit" is the best equipped among all but was used as replacement for the others.

There is even 1 tank battalion with Panzer 1:

* 20 divisions,
8 fully German trained divisons, equipped with German weapons:

3rd, 6th, 9th, 14th, 36th, 87th, 88th, and the Training Division of the Central Military Academy. Also the "Tax Police" regiment (equivalent of a division) under T.V. Soong's Ministry of Finance, later converted to the New 38th division during the war. [1]


11 other Divisions on the reorganized model with 2 German advisors, but with mostly Chinese or non German wepons:
2nd, 4th, 10th, 11th, 25th, 27th, 57th, 67th, 80th, 83rd, 89th Division

All 20 divisions were trained and organized according to plans of the German advisors. They belong to the first 2 phases of the reorganization. Another 10 divisions (3rd pahse) were in training when war broke out.

Here is what the German trained Division and other reorganized Division organization was like[2] :

10923 Officers and men
2 Brigades of 2 Regiments
3821 rifles
243 Grenade launchers
274 light Machineguns
54 heavy Machineguns
30 Battalion and Regimental guns, mortars
1 Artillery Battalion
- 16 Howitzers or Pack Howitzers **
1 Cavalry Battalion
1 Battalion of Engineers
1 Quartermaster Battalion

** German trained divisions had 12 M1903 75mm L/29 field artillery that are either made in Germany or Chinese copies.

This compares to a the rest of the Chinese divisions. There were 172 of these divisions at the begining of the war[2]:

5462 Officers and men
1 Brigade of 2 Regiments
-1910 rifles
-122 Grenade launchers
-137 light Machineguns
-27 heavy Machineguns
-15 Battalion and Regimental guns, mortars
1 Artillery Company
- 8 Howitzers or Pack Howitzers
1 Cavalry Battalion
1 Battalion of Engineers
1 Quartermaster Battalion


Sources:
[1]From: "History of the Frontal (i.e. KMT) War Zone in the Sino-Japanese War", published by Nanjing University Press. Posted by yexu on Apr 7 2005, 04:28 AM - http://www.china-defense.com/forum/inde ... ntry176135

[2] Hsu Long-hsuen and Chang Ming-kai, History of The Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945) 2nd Ed. ,1971. Translated by Wen Ha-hsiung , Chung Wu Publishing; 33, 140th Lane, Tung-hwa Street, Taipei, Taiwan Republic of China.

User avatar
asiaticus
Member
Posts: 923
Joined: 03 Mar 2004 04:53
Location: Lake Elsinore CA USA

Role of the German trained and reorganized Divisions

Post by asiaticus » 02 Sep 2005 04:00

14th 36th, 87th, 88th, Training Divisions and the 11th, 57th, 67th Divisions served in the Shanghai - Nanking Campaign in key roles esp. the 87th and 88th.

2nd, 4th, 10th, 25th, 27th, 83rd, 89th Divisions served in the North China campaigns of 1937

2nd, 4th, 6th, 9th, 25th, 83rd Divisions served in key roles in the defeat of the Japanese around Taierzhang in 1938.

Tycoon2002
Member
Posts: 98
Joined: 06 Jun 2005 12:31
Location: London, UK

Post by Tycoon2002 » 02 Sep 2005 13:03

Thanks for the information asiaticus, very interesting read

User avatar
Achtung Panzer!
Member
Posts: 120
Joined: 16 Jan 2005 15:08
Location: Singapore

Post by Achtung Panzer! » 04 Sep 2005 11:50

It was a well known fact that the son of Chiang Kaishek served in the Germany Army during the late 1930s. Chiang Wei-kuo was a Leutenant commanding a panzer tank during the 1938 Anschluss with Austria.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
asiaticus
Member
Posts: 923
Joined: 03 Mar 2004 04:53
Location: Lake Elsinore CA USA

Chiang Weiguo

Post by asiaticus » 11 Sep 2005 09:37

What was Chiang Weiguo doing in Gemany? What did he do on his return to China?

User avatar
Peter H
Member
Posts: 28628
Joined: 30 Dec 2002 13:18
Location: Australia

Post by Peter H » 11 Sep 2005 10:33

He was Chiang's adopted son.

I don't think the 98th Gebirgsjäger Regiment he was assigned to in 1938 had panzers.

Chiang's only true son,Chiang Jing-guo,returned from the Soviet Union in 1937 after 12 years---some say 'detained' by Stalin as leverage on Chiang.

User avatar
Leonard
Member
Posts: 327
Joined: 17 May 2005 21:40
Location: Hong Kong

Post by Leonard » 12 Sep 2005 23:31

Does anybody has any info about Mao's son serving in Soviet Red Army? I find this photo of him in Soviet Uniform. Wonder what might happen if the sons of Chiang and Mao fought in the Russian plain.......
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
asiaticus
Member
Posts: 923
Joined: 03 Mar 2004 04:53
Location: Lake Elsinore CA USA

Post by asiaticus » 13 Sep 2005 04:32

Might be a good question to ask on the China Defense military history forum

http://www.china-defense.com/forum/inde ... owforum=17

User avatar
Peter H
Member
Posts: 28628
Joined: 30 Dec 2002 13:18
Location: Australia

Post by Peter H » 13 Sep 2005 05:22

Mao's oldest son An-ying was in the Soviet Union 1937-1944.He attended a Soviet military academy and his written appeals to Stalin to serve at the front were ignored.Mao's other son, An-ching,was also in the USSR but suffered a slight retardation.

An-ying was killed in Korea in November 1950,by an air raid on Peng's HQ, were he was acting as a Peng's Russian translator.

Tycoon2002
Member
Posts: 98
Joined: 06 Jun 2005 12:31
Location: London, UK

Post by Tycoon2002 » 13 Sep 2005 23:25

Ive researched more into the subject and found out in 1933 Nazi Germany gave military aid to Chaingkai-Shek because of his anti - communist views. German military advisors sold weapons to the KMT armies and trained their soldiers, some even joined the German armies.

User avatar
asiaticus
Member
Posts: 923
Joined: 03 Mar 2004 04:53
Location: Lake Elsinore CA USA

Post by asiaticus » 13 Sep 2005 23:54

The German military mission to China besides setting up the Chinese modernization plan for their army also advised CKS on campaign against the Communists that forced the Long March. The Germans also made up a war plan to defeat the Japanese thru a war of attrition which CKS followed more or less (ie. the battle of Shanghai).

User avatar
Peter H
Member
Posts: 28628
Joined: 30 Dec 2002 13:18
Location: Australia

Post by Peter H » 14 Sep 2005 07:36

Details on the German Military Mission can be found here:

http://www.feldgrau.com/articles.php?ID=11

Also Sd. Kfz. 222s in Chinese service:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=73616

German vehicles in Chinese service:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=57350

User avatar
asiaticus
Member
Posts: 923
Joined: 03 Mar 2004 04:53
Location: Lake Elsinore CA USA

Chinese Division correction: no cavalry

Post by asiaticus » 18 Oct 2005 05:12

I made an error looking at the source chart, there was no cavarly battalion or company in a Chinese infantry division.

Here is what the German trained Division and other reorganized Division organization was like[2] :

10923 Officers and men
2 Brigades of 2 Regiments
3821 rifles
243 Grenade launchers
274 light Machineguns
54 heavy Machineguns
30 Battalion and Regimental guns, mortars
1 Artillery Battalion
- 16 Howitzers or Pack Howitzers **
1 Battalion of Engineers
1 Quartermaster Battalion

** German trained divisions had 12 M1903 75mm L/29 field artillery that are either made in Germany or Chinese copies.

This compares to a the rest of the Chinese divisions. There were 172 of these divisions at the begining of the war[2]:

5462 Officers and men
1 Brigade of 2 Regiments
-1910 rifles
-122 Grenade launchers
-137 light Machineguns
-27 heavy Machineguns
-15 Battalion and Regimental guns, mortars
1 Artillery Company
- 8 Howitzers or Pack Howitzers
1 Battalion of Engineers
1 Quartermaster Battalion


Sources:

[2] Hsu Long-hsuen and Chang Ming-kai, History of The Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945) 2nd Ed. ,1971. Translated by Wen Ha-hsiung , Chung Wu Publishing; 33, 140th Lane, Tung-hwa Street, Taipei, Taiwan Republic of China.

User avatar
asiaticus
Member
Posts: 923
Joined: 03 Mar 2004 04:53
Location: Lake Elsinore CA USA

Organization of Chinese Reorganized Divisions

Post by asiaticus » 07 Dec 2005 10:42

See discussion here of the Organization of Chinese Reorganized Divisions that were German trained and equipped.

http://www.china-defense.com/forum/inde ... ntry225348

Return to “China at War 1895-1949”