Hermann Fegelein

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Roderick
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Hermann Fegelein

Post by Roderick » 19 Sep 2005 01:32

Can anybody explain why in 1944 the cad Hermann Fegelein succeeded Karl Wolff as Himmler's liaison officer with Hitler? What were the real causes and circumstances that substitution?

Roderick

jv
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Herman Fegelein

Post by jv » 19 Sep 2005 03:14

One explanation for this lies in the fact that the relationship between Wolff and Himmler had been compromised by then. Wolff referred to himself as 'liaison officer of the Waffen SS with Hitler' rather than 'Himmler's liaison officer'. jv

Pentanov
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Post by Pentanov » 19 Sep 2005 08:39

(Edited out)
Last edited by Pentanov on 31 Jan 2006 16:43, edited 1 time in total.

jeweste
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Post by jeweste » 19 Sep 2005 14:52

The differences between Himmler and Wolff have to be seen as normal soap opera games inside the personal staff of Himmler. Rumors, slander, jealousy, the full program of human problems. They all knew about Himmlers weaknesses, like his affaire with his former secretary Hedwig Potthast. Grothmann was also involved in this games, the divorce of Wolff was a big point to blackmail Wolff. Nevertheless, games of power. Wolff and Grothmann could not stand each other, even after the war. Banalität des Bösen.
With the selection of Fegelein, Himmler improved his influence inside Hitlers HQ. He could trust Fegelein 100%. Himmler knew all the crimes of Fegelein and therefore Fegelein was in his hands.
And the glue for all this figures was the holocaust. Remember, in the summer 1941 Fegelein and his SS Reiterregiment were the spearhead of the Waffen-SS in the holocaust.
Greetings
jeweste

jv
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Herman Fegelein

Post by jv » 20 Sep 2005 00:19

Hi, for background info on Wolff and the intrigues I can recommend Der Adjutant by Jochen v. Lang. jv

jeweste
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Post by jeweste » 20 Sep 2005 00:34

Please find attached extract Vernehmungsniederschrift Werner Grothmann 11-27-1962 in the context with the trial against Werner Wolff. Archiv: Zentrale Stelle der Landesjustizverwaltung Ludwigsburg. Sorry, it is in German. But showes again, how close and personal the contact between Himmler and his Adjutants was. So the "low ranking" Grothmann and Himmler are discussing personal and intimate subjects of the SS General Wolff. BTW, same with his adjutant Joachim Peiper. So, please forget the myth of the pure Waffen-SS liaison officers Grothmann and Peiper. But this was not your question. The main reason to replace Wolff with Fegelein was the disturbed relationship and the lack of trust between Himmler and Wolff. Hope, with this document I can underline my former statement about banality of evel and the soap opera games inside that inner Himmler circle.
Cheers
jeweste
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Rob - wssob2
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Post by Rob - wssob2 » 20 Sep 2005 05:14

Fegelein never replaced Wolf in any capacity.

SS-Gruppenführer Fegelein served as Himmler's liason to the Führer ("Verb.Offz. der Waffen-SS beim Führer")- in essence the W-SS representative in the OKW - from July 1944 to April 29, 1945.

Karl Wolf served as Chief of Staff in Himmler's "Persönlicher Stab RFSS" (Personal Staff of the Reichführer-SS) from December 1936 to November 1944. In September 1943 Wolff also became "Höchster SS und Polizeführer Italien" (Highest SS & Police Leader Italy) - a position he used to foster various political intrigues with the Vatican in Rome and OSS representatives in Switzerland. It was Wolff who pursuaded Field Marshall Kesselring to surrender German forces in Italy in May 1945.

Fegelein had a long pre-war career in the Equestrian-SS and a distinguised combat record as commander of the SS-Calvary Brigade and 8th SS Division. The Gestapo investigated Fegelein for allegations of race defilement and graft in 1940, but Himmler had the proceedings stopped. Fegelein's cavalry unit was responsible for the massacre of tens of thousands of Jewish civilians in the Pripyet Marshes area of White Russia during the late summer of 1941.

I'm not certain on the circumstances of Fegelin's courtship of Eva Braun's sister. Fegelein was wounded in September 1943 and presumably spent some time convalescing; he married Gretl in June 1944, and got the OKW posting the following July. Fegelein supposedly got his OKW~W-SS posting after Himmler showed Hitler a letter Fegelein wrote which said in part "If the other had not been there, I would so much have liked to tell the Fuhrer how much his soldiers revere and are devoted to him," but ingratiating letters probably paled in importance to being a pseudo-brother-in-law.

Fegelein went AWOL from the Führerbunker in the last days of WWII, and was found drunk in civilian clothes hiding out in a Berlin apartment with a red-headed bombshell (a woman, not a munition - and one who is alleged to have been a British spy of Hungarian descent!) Fegelein was dragged back to the Führer to experience one last vitrolic tyrade from Adolf, then shot among the shellholes of the Chancellery garden for desertion.


From what I've read, both individuals were rather unsavory opportunists.



Here's Karl Wolf's biography from Mike Miller's excellent Axis Biographical Reseach site:

WOLFF, Karl [Friedrich Otto] (DKiG)
(1900-1984)
SS-Obergruppenführer und General der Waffen-SS/M.d.R.:
Born: 13. May 1900 in Darmstadt, Hessen.
Died: 17. Jul. 1984 in Rosenheim.
NSDAP-Nr.: 695 131/SS-Nr.: 14 235
Promotions:
[Unconfirmed promotion to SS-Oberst-Gruppenfüher und Generaloberst der Waffen-SS: 20. Apr. 1945];
SS-OGruf.u.Gen.d.W-SS:
30. Jan. 1942; Gen.Lt.d.W-SS:
3. May 1940; SS-Gruf.:
30. Jan. 1937; SS-Brigf.:
9. Nov. 1935; SS-Oberf.:
4. Jul. 1934; SS-Staf.:
20. Apr. 1934; SS-OStubaf.:
30. Jan. 1934; SS-Stubaf.:
9. Nov. 1933; SS-Sturmhauptführer:
30. Jan. 1933; SS-Sturmfuhrer:
18. Feb. 1932.
Assignments:
HöSSPF "Italien" (HQ's: Rome, Verona, Bolzano [Bozen): 23. Sep. 1943-8. May 1945.
Member of Reichstag (M.d.R.): Mar. 1933-8. May 1945.
World War I Service:
Notes:
Marital Status: Married (__ children).
Postwar Prosecution:
Arrested, 1962; Sentenced to 15 years' imprisonment for complicity in the deportation (to Treblinka) of Warsaw Jews during the summer of 1942. Released, 1971.
Decorations & Awards:
Deutsches Kreuz in Gold: 9. Dec. 1944;
1939 Spange zum 1914 E.K. I/II; KVK I/II m. Schw.; Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer; Goldenes Parteiabzeichen; Dienstauszeichnungen der NSDAP; Deutsche-Olympia Ehrenzeichen 1. Klasse; SS-Dienstauszeichnungen; Reichssportabzeichen in Silber; SA-Sportabzeichen in Bronze; Ehrendegen des RF SS/Totenkopfring der SS.




Here's Fegeleiin's biography from the same site:

FEGELEIN, Hermann (RK m. EL u. Schw.; DKiG)
(1906 - 1945)
SS-Gruppenführer und Generalleutnant der Waffen-SS:
Born: 30. 10. 1906 in Ansbach.
Executed: 29.04.1945 in Reichskanzlei, Berlin (shot by an SS squad for alleged desertion)
NSDAP-Nr.: 1 200 158
SS-Nr.: 66 680 (Joined 15.05.1933)
Promotions:
SS-Gruf.u.Gen.Lt.d.W-SS: 21.06.44; SS-Brigf.u.Gen.Maj.d.W-SS: 1.05.43; SS-Oberf.: 1.12.42; SS-Staf. (W-SS): 1.02.42; SS-Ostubaf. d.R.: 03.1940; SS-Staf.: 25.07.38; SS-Ostubaf.: 30.01.37; SS-Stubaf.: 30.01.36; SS-Hstuf.: 9.11.34; SS-Ostuf.: 20.04.34; SS-Ustuf.: 12.06.33;
Assignments:
Verbindungsoffizier zischen dem Reichsführer SS und dem Führerhauptquartier (Liaison officer between Himmler and Führer headquarters):
Chef des Amtes VI (Reit- u.Fahrwesen) im SS-Führungshauptamt:
Kdr. SS-Kavallerie-Brigade (later SS-Kavallerie-Division, then 8.SS-Kavallerie-Division "Florian Geyer"):
Kdr. 8.SS-Kavallerie-Division "Florian Geyer": 22.10.1943- 1.12.1943.
Kdr. SS-Kavallerie-Division: 14.05.1943 - 13.09.1943.
Kdr. SS-Kavallerie-Brigade: 1.09.1941 - 05.1942.
Kdr. SS-Totenkopf-Kavallerie-Regiment 1: 6.12.1940 -19.08.1941.
Führer 1.SS-Totenkopf-Reiterstandarte (Garrison: Warsaw): 22.11.1939 - 1.06.1940.
Named by Himmler as Führer SS-Hauptreitschule (SS Main Riding School) München: 16.06.1936; main structure work commenced on the school, 20.10.1936, with planned completion date of 07.1937. Fegelein remained in command there until 09.1939.
Führer Reiterabschnitt V (SS-Oa. "Süd"): 05.1934 - 31.10.1936.
Führer SS-Reiterstandarte 15 (SS-Oa. "Süd"): 0.1934 - 09.1934.
Reiterführer & Sonderführer SS-Gruppe Süd (later SS-Oa. Süd): 15.05.1933 - 07.1934.
Entered Allgemeine-SS: 15.05.1933.
Reichswehr & Police Service:
Possible Freikorps service. MG unit in Kav.Rgt. 17: 1925-1926. Entered Bavarian Landespolizei in München, 20.04.1927. Served as NCO, then officer candidate, leaving the police 16.08.1929.
Notes:
Highly accomplished equestrian, participating in numerous riding competitions throughout Europe in the 1920's and 1930's.
Married Gretl Braun (sister of Hitler's mistress, Eva Braun), Jun. 1944.
Decorations & Awards:
Ritterkreuz des E.K.: 2.03.1942 as SS-Staf. u. Kdr. SS-Kav.Brig./Gen.Kdo. XXIII.A.K./AOK 9/Heeresgruppe Mitte, Eastern Front;
-Eichenlaub (Nr. 157): 25.12.1942 as SS-Oberf. u. Fhr. einre Kampfgruppe im Bereich der Heeresgruppe Mitte, Eastern Front;
--Schwertern (Nr. 83): 30.07.1944 as SS-Gruf.u.Gen.Lt.d.W-SS u. Kdr. 8.SS-Kav.Div. "Florian Geyer", Eastern Front;
Deutsches Kreuz in Gold: 1.11.1943;
1939 EK I: 28.06.1941 ; 1939 EK II: 15.12.1940; KVK II m. Schw.;
Nahkampfspange II. Klasse (Silber);
Allgemeine-Sturmabzeichen in Silber; Infanterie- Sturmabzeichen in Silber;
Verwundetenabzeichen, 1939 in Silber (for wounds received 9.09.43 and 13.09.43);
Ostmedaille; Medaille zur Erinnerung an den 1. Okt. 1938; Medaille zur Erinnerung and den 13. Mar. 1938;
Reitersportabzeichen in Gold;
Dienstauszeichnung der NSDAP in Bronze;
SS-Dienstauszeichnungen;
Ehrendegen des RF SS/Totenkopfring der SS.

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Shadowman
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Re: Hermann Fegelein

Post by Shadowman » 06 Dec 2011 14:06

According to this article, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_Fegelein, Fegelein was an Obergruppenführer in the Waffen-SS. "Fegelein's Waffen-SS Obergruppenführer rank was higher than his Allgemeine SS rank of SS-Gruppenführer." The article cites Michael Miller's Leaders of the SS and German Police, Vol. 1. Is this information correct?
Last edited by Shadowman on 06 Dec 2011 20:37, edited 1 time in total.
Best regards,

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Max Williams
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Re: Hermann Fegelein

Post by Max Williams » 06 Dec 2011 16:07

Shadowman wrote:According to this article, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_Fegelein, Fegelein was an Obergruppenführer in the Waffen-SS. "Fegelein's Waffen-SS Obergruppenführer rank was higher than his Allgemeine SS rank of SS-Gruppenführer." The articles cites Michael Miller's Leaders of the SS and German Police, Vol. 1. Is this information correct?


It's nonsense.
Max.

HFK
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Re: Hermann Fegelein

Post by HFK » 06 Dec 2011 16:16

Hello, The major cause of the problems between Himmler and Wolff, was Wolff's insistence on divorcing his wife, against Himmler's wishes and opposition. This was in 1943, and subsequently Wolff was transferred to Italy as HSSPF'.

Best Regards, Harry

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Dieter Zinke
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Re: Hermann Fegelein

Post by Dieter Zinke » 06 Dec 2011 17:55

Harry,

your statement is surely too simplistic !
Wolff was still going for convalescent care in Badgastein, when Himmler ordered his immediate coming to his field camp in Lötzen !
Wolff was the best man for Italy !

BTW: he was at first Höherer SS- und Polizeiführer Oberitalien-West, later
"Höchster SS- und Polizeiführer beim Oberbefehlshaber im Gebiet der Heeresgruppe B und im Gebiet des Oberbefehlshabers Süd” (”Höchster SS- und Polizeiführer Italien”). This is a promotion !

Dieter Z.

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Michael Miller
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Re: Hermann Fegelein

Post by Michael Miller » 06 Dec 2011 18:41

According to this article, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_Fegelein, Fegelein was an Obergruppenführer in the Waffen-SS. "Fegelein's Waffen-SS Obergruppenführer rank was higher than his Allgemeine SS rank of SS-Gruppenführer." The articles cites Michael Miller's Leaders of the SS and German Police, Vol. 1. Is this information correct?


I certainly never promoted Fegelein to Obergruppenführer. :|

~ Mike

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