Photos of the Shanghai fighting 1937

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Peter H
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Photos of the Shanghai fighting 1937

Post by Peter H » 21 Sep 2005 06:15

102 photos online,by the Swiss resident Karl Kengelbacher:

http://www.japan-guide.com/a/shanghai/image.html?1

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asiaticus
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Post by asiaticus » 22 Sep 2005 07:57


Tycoon2002
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Post by Tycoon2002 » 23 Sep 2005 18:15

The Chinese certainly showed their bravery and how they could fight against a country who had modern weaponary and mechanilized divisions in thie battle.

After reading about the battle that at one point the Chinese german trained units were actually pushing the Japanese back into the sea! So Japan had to call in their best war ships to bombard the coast so the Chinese had to retreat. Japan must of felt bad that they had to use their best ships to defeat a so called 'Inferior' race. Both sides suffered about 200,000 casualties despite the Chinese possesing neither an airforce or naval power and destroyed the Japanese arrogrance of 'Taking Shanghai in 3 days and China in 3 months'.

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Leonard
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Post by Leonard » 18 Nov 2005 10:30

Best Ship? I never heard a single Japanese battleship in action in Shanghai....The flagship of Japanese fleet in China is "Izumo" from Japan-Russia War.

I don't want to undermine the bravery of the Chinese soldiers. But IMO, the German trained Chinese divisions are actually better equiped than the Japanese marines (who have few heavy artillery). The Chinese fail to take Shanghai beacuse of the lack of air and sea superiority; poor coordinations between tanks, artillery, and infantry; and the failure to commit a big enough force before Japan reinforcements.

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Post by Tycoon2002 » 20 Nov 2005 13:48

Leonard wrote:Best Ship? I never heard a single Japanese battleship in action in Shanghai....The flagship of Japanese fleet in China is "Izumo" from Japan-Russia War.

I don't want to undermine the bravery of the Chinese soldiers. But IMO, the German trained Chinese divisions are actually better equiped than the Japanese marines (who have few heavy artillery). The Chinese fail to take Shanghai beacuse of the lack of air and sea superiority; poor coordinations between tanks, artillery, and infantry; and the failure to commit a big enough force before Japan reinforcements.


Here is my overall review about the battle - The Japanese did use their battleships.

When the Japanese landed at Shanghai they tried to drive the Chinese out of the borders but because of the fierce reisstance of the Chinese they were being drivien back to the sea so the Japanese Navy was called in bombard the coast, so the Chinese troops had to retreat. Then the second stage was the brutal house to house battle where Chinese and Japanese soldiers were fighting hand to hand combat a lot like the fighting in Stalingrad. But with the Japanese bombers bombing the Chinese lines they had to retreat.....then the third stage was the suprise counter attack by the German trained/Chinese soldiers which caused a lot of casualties on the Japanese side but again because of the air superioty they were forced to retreat out of the city but still many Chinese soldiers didnt give up and fought hard to keep their higher ground but with casualties comming in their lines were flattering out of the city. The Chinese finally had to retreat to Nanking but they knew they were able to stand up to the Japanese which infuriated them and thats what many historians consider which caused them to commit the Nanking masscare.

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Post by Leonard » 20 Nov 2005 14:27

May I ask which battleship is involved? I don't see the mentioning of any in your post.

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3rd fleet thru the Shanghai campaign.

Post by asiaticus » 21 Nov 2005 07:28

Here is what I have found is the initial Japanese naval forces at Shanghai Aug. 11. 1937:

- 3rd Fleet : 20+ Warships 5 Transports at Shanghai [1, 3, M144]
- Rear Admiral Denshichi Okawachi
– Izumo
- 11th Gunboat Division - Rear Admiral Tanimoto Umataro **, [M144]
-- flagship Yaeyama, Hozu, Futami and Kotaka from Hankow
--Katada, Sumida and Kuri in Shanghai
--Tsuga from Nanking,
--Hasu from Wuhu,
--Atami from Kiukiang,
--Seta from Changsha,
--Toba from Ichang,
--Hira from Chungking

- 8th Sentai Cruiser Division - Rear Admiral Nagumo
--(Kinu, Natori, Yura)

-1st Destroyer Sentai - Rear Admiral Yoshida
--(Sendai)
--- ships? Destroyer Group (Tai)
--- ships? Destroyer Group (Tai)
--- ships? Destroyer Group (Tai)

-- 1st Air Sentai - Rear Admiral Takasu
--- (Hosho) 26 aircraft capacity %1
----- Fighter Daitai - ? Nakajima A2N [3]
----- Bomber Daitai - ?
----- Attack Daitai - ?
--- (Ryujo) 48 aircraft capacity %1
---- ? aircraft?
----- Fighter Daitai - ? Nakajima A2N [3]
----- Bomber Daitai - ?
----- Attack Daitai - ?
--- 30th Destroyer Group
----(? ) 4 Destroyers


Third Fleet was assigned for over-all operations in China. Second Fleet was assigned to escort army transports. With the dispatch of troops to the Tsingtao area, the Second Fleet assumed responsibility for operations in North China waters, while the Third Fleet operated in Central and South China waters. These areas of operation were divided by the Lung-Hai railroad, starting from Hai-chou, and included the area of North China Operations.

By Oct. 29th 1937 my info is that the fleet looked like this:

3rd Fleet:– Vice Admiral Hasegawa
- (Izumo - flagship of 3rd Fleet)
- 8th Sentai - Rear Admiral Nagumo
--(Kinu, Natori, Yura)
- 9th Sentai - Rear Admiral Kobayashi
--(Myoko, Tama)
- 10th Sentai - Rear Admiral Shimomura
--(Tenryu, Tatsuta)
- 11th Sentai - Rear Admiral Tanimoto
-- 13 gunboats:
-- flagship Yaeyama, Hozu, Futami and Kotaka from Hankow,
-- Katada, Sumida and Kuri in Shanghai,
-- Tsuga from Nanking,
-- Hasu from Wuhu,
-- Atami from Kiukiang,
-- Seta from Changsha,
-- Toba from Ichang,
-- Hira from Chungking
- 1st Destroyer Sentai - Rear Admiral Yoshida
--(Sendai)
--- ? Destroyer Group (Tai) 4 Destroyers
--- ? Destroyer Group (Tai) 4 Destroyers
--- ? Destroyer Group (Tai) 4 Destroyers
- 3rd Destroyer Sentai - Rear Admiral Kondo
-- (Kitakami)
--- ? Destroyer Group (Tai) 4 Destroyers
--- ? Destroyer Group (Tai) 4 Destroyers
--- ? Destroyer Group (Tai) 4 Destroyers
- 5th Destroyer Sentai - Rear Admiral Okuma
-- (Yubari)
--- 16th Destroyer Group (Tai) 4 Destroyers
--- ? Destroyer Group (Tai) 4 Destroyers
-1st Submarine Sentai - Rear Admiral Komatsu
--(Isuzu)and 2 submarine groups) Subs: #'s I-1, I-3, I-4 , I-5, I-6 , ?
-- 7th Submarine Group (Tai) - Cdr;Cpt.Mito Hisashi; [Taki / PWf]
--- ?
-- 8th Submarine Group (Tai) - Cpt.Akiyama Katsuzo; [Taki / PWf]
-- ?
- 1st Minesweeper Group (Tai)
-- ?
- 11th Minesweeper Group (Tai)
-- ?

Plus the Naval part of the Special Air Group supporting the action in Shanghai:
-- 12th Sentai - Rear Admiral Miyata
---(Okinoshima)
---(Kamoi[seaplane tender])
---- 12 NAKAJIMA TYPE 95 RECON SEAPLANE (E8N1-DAVE)
--- 28th Destroyer Group
---- ( ?) 4 Destroyers
-- 1st Air Sentai - Rear Admiral Takasu
--- (Hosho) 26 aircraft capacity %1
----- Fighter Daitai - ? Nakajima A2N [3]
----- Bomber Daitai - ?
----- Attack Daitai - ?
--- (Ryujo) 48 aircraft capacity %1
---- ? aircraft?
----- Fighter Daitai - ? Nakajima A2N [3]
----- Bomber Daitai - ?
----- Attack Daitai - ?
--- 30th Destroyer Group
----(? ) 4 Destroyers
-- 2nd Air Sentai - Rear Admiral Horie
--- (Kaga) 90 aircraft capacity [%1]
----- Fighter daitai - 16 Nakajima A2N , ? Type 95 Mitsubishi A5M )[3]
---- Bomber Daitai - 14 carrier bombers (Aichi D1A1s, A2's)
---- Attack daitai - 22 Mitsubishi B2M, ? Type 96 Yokosuka B4Y1 Torpedo bomber [3]
--- 22nd Destroyer Group
---- (? )4 Destroyers

Notes:
% Air group was temporarily formed and attached to 3rd Fleet.
%1 1http://homepage2.nifty.com/nishidah/e/stc0201.htm 26 plane capacity.


Sources:
[1] Hsu Long-hsuen and Chang Ming-kai, History of The Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945) 2nd Ed. ,1971. Translated by Wen Ha-hsiung , Chung Wu Publishing; 33, 140th Lane, Tung-hwa Street, Taipei, Taiwan Republic of China.

Named Japanese ships at Shanghai :
Fleet HQ: Izumo , Notoro. Shanghai SNLF
1st Task Force (Syake flag), (10 Gunboats, Tenryu, Hirado, Togiwa, Zushima, and 5 Destroyers )
3rd Squadron (Naka F), Yura
1st Torpedo Squadron: (Yubari; flagship)
1st Aviation Squadron - (Kaga; flag) Housho and 4 destroyers

[3] Sino-Japanese Air War 1937-45 http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/sino-japanese.htm

[M144] Monograph 144 Chapter II http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/monos/144/14 ... 20Incident

[PWf] Forum: Pacific War 1941-1945, discussion about Shanghai Defense force Aug. 11 1937 http://f16.parsimony.net/forum27947/messages/6197.htm

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Post by asiaticus » 21 Nov 2005 07:44

It looks like the Japanese besides the Izumo mostly had cruisers, destroyers and gunboats providing the supporting fires. This would make sense in the relatively closed shallow waters of the rivers and coastal waters they were operating in.

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Post by Topspeed » 21 Nov 2005 08:17

Why did the japanese and the chinese fight in the first place ?

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Post by Tycoon2002 » 21 Nov 2005 11:31

Leonard wrote:May I ask which battleship is involved? I don't see the mentioning of any in your post.


Not sure what ships were involved but the Japanese did use their Navy to bombard the coast so the Chinese had to retreat to protect themselves from the barrage.

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Peter H
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Post by Peter H » 21 Nov 2005 12:56

Has anyone a map/s of the Shanghai fighting in 1937?

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Shanghai fighting in 1937?

Post by asiaticus » 21 Nov 2005 20:37

Here is a map of the Shanghai fighting in 1937 I ran across on the China defense forum:

Hope someone can translate the Chinese! :^)
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Post by Eugen Pinak » 22 Nov 2005 09:40

Are you sure that this map is not of 1932 conflict?

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Post by zstar » 24 Nov 2005 14:45

Image

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Re the map

Post by asiaticus » 26 Nov 2005 08:35

No its the map of the middle part of the fighting showing the landing and attacks of the reinforcing Shanghai Expeditionary Force from 8/22 to about 10/21/37.

The map is similar to Map 7 in a copy of Hsu Long-hsuen and Chang Ming-kai, History of The Sino-Japanese War, which shows the whole battle.

According to the Histories map the landings at the mouth of the river were by the main force of the Exp. Force spearheaded by the 9th and 11th Divisions, the landing up the coast was by the 3rd and 13th Divisions.

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